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Just saw Matrix Reloaded today and just as i expected it was crap when compared to the first movie. The Matrix can never be improved upon due to its originality and special effects for the time. Not to say that Reloaded is not a good movie because it is a damn good moive, but its no matrix.

As for the end of the moive. I have heard a lot of people saying that Neo stopped the Squiddes. That there is a Matrix within the Matrix, the real world that we all thought was real is another Matrix. I do not like this at all. I don't even think Neo stopped the squiddes, i think the ship that rescued the Nebacanezer Trio released an EMP. I Just want to hear thoughts about the moive.

I, myself, liked it.

The second just added more complexity to the first, and does not try to take over the first. The second's main idea is to EXPAND the world of the matrix, making it more indepth, and the third is to be the conclusion.

The reason, maybe, why you love the first (like me) is the philosophy and groundbreaking effects. The second movie is the war part, full of action. Why arn't the graphics really ground breaking in the second? Because the First did them first, and the second improved upon the methods.

Personally, I like the second. The ending of the second especially made you think twice or thrice about the matrix.

As for the matrix inside of the matrix... The people of Zion are actually free, not in the matrix. The robots built the matrix to retain some order by allowing those who rebelled to go away, leaving the ones with no quarrel to 'meet thier quota'.

Pistol Grip Pump In My Lap At All Times

Just saw Matrix Reloaded today and just as i expected it was crap when compared to the first movie. (. . .)

As for the end of the moive. I have heard a lot of people saying that Neo stopped the Squiddes. (. . .) I do not like this at all. I don't even think Neo stopped the squiddes, i think the ship that rescued the Nebacanezer Trio released an EMP. I Just want to hear thoughts about the moive.

I think that Reloaded was great, but that more people expected the same feel as the original, when that just wouldn't be possible because the story has to progress from the same feel (it would be far too boring, otherwise). As for the ending, I don't think that the Vengeance (?) could have released the EMP blast, because they would have to power back up, take off, and then show up; they got to Neo and his menagerie far too quickly for that. Perhaps Neo has some innate power against the machines because he truly is The One, to fulfill the prophecy beyond which his predecessors went (remember, he chose a different path from the rest of them).

Thbbbbt

The machines were not taken down by the EMP from the Vigilance: Neo said something like "Something is different; I can feel them", so he obviously had some extra power. My guess is that he became part machine (I guess when Smith tried to infect him: it didnt fully work, but he became partly machine). Remember when Neo was talking to the council member, and he said its a good thing you can't sleep; it shows you're human. Well, now Neo is in a coma (he is sleeping): I guess this symbolizes that he's not fully human anymore. That would explain how he took down the machines. This could be totally wrong, but its my best guess.

"It was not God who created man, but man who created God." --Santa Caserio

That's actually a pretty interesting thought, j0. It must have been him that took them down, because there seems to be no other reason for him to have collapsed like he did. . .

But maybe he is the One, not just a particularly strong rebel. . . he chose a different path from the previous people thought to be "The One." One of the other options is of a Matrix inside the Matrix, but that seems far too complex and particularly unnecessary. Is it possible that Neo never looks at himself in the Matrix because he might see that he's completely different from everybody else? (Think Seraph meditating, glowing bright gold, surrounded by green code)

Thbbbbt

I think that Neo IS "the one" because he is part machine, as he has been the whole time, and he is the only glitch in the maker's system. Neo is like a virus - he is the only human/machine that can break the matrix apart. I think that a Matrix inside a Matrix isn't going to be in the plot - but it's an interesting idea.

Is it possible that Neo never looks at himself in the Matrix because he might see that he's completely different from everybody else?

I don't think this is the case... Neo never looks at himself, but we get to see Neo in Matrix code when he first "plugs in"; we see him putting his glasses on in perfectly normal green code. I don't think he's any different in that regard.

"It was not God who created man, but man who created God." --Santa Caserio

Just saw the movie yesterday and am entitled to join the discussion now. :-)

Well here's my blind shot. I suspect that there's only one Matrix, but nobody has ever left the Matrix. In other words, Zion and the whole liberation war is just another illusion.
This would make an excellent controlling mechanism (<-- correct expression?), because people who think they're outside the Matrix wouldn't look for a way out.

It would also explain some other things:

• The architect saying "this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it [Zion]"

• Also, Neo being asked to pick 23 individuals to rebuild Zion. Why would the Matrix want this, if not for their own advantage?

• Agent Smith being able to duplicate himself into some real-life person, and being taken out of the Matrix. (Granted, there may also be another explanation for this, like Smith overwriting that person's real-life mind.)

• Neo being able to stop these guardian jellyfishes at the end of the movie. Normally he could only do that in the Matrix.

• (In part 1: The bad guy being roasted just when he was about to kill Neo, stating "if he really was the chosen one, something would prevent me from killing him.")

I'm sure there were others, but these are the ones I can think of right now. Now what do you think? :-)

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Well here's my blind shot. I suspect that there's only one Matrix, but nobody has ever left the Matrix. In other words, Zion and the whole liberation war is just another illusion.

Is this really so different from the Matrix Inside Matrix theory?

I think the story could work out without any additional worlds of illusion. Who would notice five ruins of older Zions hidden below the ground?

Also if Neo had been inside the Matrix all the time why was it only at the end of Part II that he was able to roast Jellyfish?

Something must have changed somewhere in Reloaded. It can't possibly have been the same way all along.

Some of my friends think that Neo gained his extra-Matrix, Jellyfish-roasting powers when Smith tried to assimilate him. Others believe that is had to do with Neo opting for the other door and thus letting this version of the Matrix spin out of control.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Who would notice five ruins of older Zions hidden below the ground?

Yeah, but why would the machines want to rebuild Zion and thus form a new resistance? After all, the total destruction of Zion would solve their problem.

Also if Neo had been inside the Matrix all the time why was it only at the end of Part II that he was able to roast Jellyfish?

Probably he had that power all the time and just didn't know how to use it. Like when he was shot in the first part, and only afterwards learned that he's the chosen one and can stop the bullets...
(Or maybe the left door has something to do with it...)

Something must have changed somewhere in Reloaded. It can't possibly have been the same way all along.

Maybe Neo changed somebody when he took the left door. IIRC, when the Jellyswarm approached he said something like "something's different. I can feel (sense?) them."
(The German word for "feel" and "sense" is the same, so I can't tell which one it's supposed to be.)

Another thing that came to my mind. In the second part the architect says "the matrix is older than you know."

So many maybe's. I'm looking forward to november.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Yeah, but why would the machines want to rebuild Zion and thus form a new resistance? After all, the total destruction of Zion would solve their problem.

As I understood it, the world of the Matrix is rejected by a very small percentage of the plugged-in human population. For those few, the whole Zion farce is staged by the machines.

Zion or the resistance never were the problem for the machines. The only problem is the imperfection of the Matrix.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

I personally believe that there is only one matrix, but they are still in it, simular to what has been already said. If it was the "real world" why would the architech (really just a program) inside the "matrix" be in charge of the recreation of zion? so if there were two matrices, would it be a PROGRAM that would recreate zion? of course. as the oracle says (whose actress died at the age of 64 before filming Enter the Matrix and Matrix: Revolutions.), there is a program that governs everything. so this makes it seem that there is one huge matrix, where people think they can escape from one level to another where they are "free". To get the "big" picture, i sugguest playing the absolutely amazing video game, Enter the Matrix. it has one hour of live action scenes with all the real actors, so it really is like matrix 2.5.

2nd Corinthians 5:7 "for we walk by faith, not by sight" ............I might be wrong...............

Remember Smith also tried to infect morpheus, he never appeared to exibit any "power". I agree with the Neo fulfiling beyond the prophecy of his predeccesors theory though. I think the matrix within another matrix theory can be disproved by neo's going into a coma, it makes sense at first, but unless the primary matrix is somehow designed to have superpowerful clients and deals with them by making them use energy to use those powers, whatever, I guess we'll find out in Revelutions.

Do you like blue? I hope so, cuz thats the one thing about me that shall never change.

Remember Smith also tried to infect morpheus, he never appeared to exibit any "power".

First of all, Smith never finished infecting Morpheus (it was broken up by Neo); second, Morpheus was never as powerful to begin with as Neo was, so he wouldn't have any power.

"It was not God who created man, but man who created God." --Santa Caserio

Ok, I think I've got this figured out. . .

The Vigilance was destroyed by the Sentinel using a bomb.
The Hammer rescued Morpheus et al. after
the Nebuchadnezzar was destroyed, the same was the Vigilance was destroyed.
And Niyobe is captain of some other ship (sounds like "Loh-gohss")

Thbbbbt

This post was edited by Magnifico on Jun 07, 2003.

And Niyobe is captain of some other ship (sounds like "Loh-gohss")

It's Niobe and Logos. I think logos is Greek for "the word" and is still often used in a religious context (the word of God).

German is one of the languages in which words are pronounced exactly as they are written (character by character) so we don't have such a hard time figuring out how to spell a word once we heard it :)

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Gotcha.

Linguistics can be hard to grasp when your mother tongue has three to five sounds for each vowel and many consonant sounds have multiple letters, while multiple consonants have different sounds. . .

Thbbbbt

As for the ending, I don't think that the Vengeance (?) could have released the EMP blast, because they would have to power back up, take off, and then show up; they got to Neo and his menagerie far too quickly for that.

That is a damn good point. The only example being from the end of the Matrix when the EMP is released from the Nebacanezer(SP?), but not until Neo is unplugged from the Matrix so that his brain does not crash from the power outage.

Do neo's power supercede the Matrix and hold water in the real world? Is this true becuase he choose a different path then the 6 other Neo's before him.

Here is another excellend point i heard from a friend - In Matrix Reloaded the architect says that there was 5 Neo's before the current Neo - is that correct? If so the machines of the matrix are unaware that Neo actually died a 6th time and came back to life, making the current Neo the 7th - a biblically important number. At the end of the matrix Neo dies and comes back to life, but he was unplugged, therefore the machines might not have known that his heart actually stopped beating. I don't believe in the bible, nor do i read it, but the first has many references to it. Doesn't jesus come back on the 7th day? The world/universe was created in 7 days. And all that Makaveli crap which i know nothing about, but that was also 7 days i think.

The fact that Neo is the 7th version of himself, but the machines do not realize that he is the 7th makes him special not only in the Matrix but in the real world. Neo has not even come close to realizing his full potential in either world.

A quick side note - the first matrix movie was created without the intention of creating any more movies - it should have been kept this way. If the W brothers wanted to make more movies and money, they should have made prequel movies that explained what the two anime episodes - The 2nd Renisance part I and II - explain. www.theanimatrix.com if you haven't seen them.

The meaning of the Matrix (and the sequel) can be viewed in multiple ways, really.

(Buddhism): Neo first abandons his "self" to the cause of rebellion and denies that he is the one (he's told he isn't, and accepts it). He then, through his denial, becomes the One, attaining "Enlightenment." After his Englightenment, he can see the world around him, the world that so many people believes to be real, but is nothing more than "real" in the sensory meaning; there's another world beyond this one, which he now must show to everyone else.
Side note: 5 (6, if Alien8u is correct) previous "The One"s = previous lives of Neo (remember, he discusses the whole concept of his past life inside the Matrix in the first one in the car ride to the Oracle).

(Christianity): Morpheus prepares the way for Neo, akin to John the Baptist, but Neo is the true Messiah figure in the Judeo-Christian sense. He sacrifices himself, and becomes the One, the man who will free everybody from the Matrix (John 3:16, remember those signs at football games, anti-gay rallies, etc.? "For God so loved the world that he offered up his only son to sacrifice for the world" or something close to that). His death is particularly painful (he takes quite a beating from Smith), but he comes back relatively shortly thereafter. And, of course, rips Agent Smith a new one.

(Plato/Socrates): Allegory of the cave, your basic description of the Matrix. According to Plato, we are all tied down to a rock in some giant cave; we can't look back to see other people (read: Gods, superior beings, whatever else) behind us, but they are projecting shadows of various objects on the cave wall (the wall we all see). Because we know nothing else, we believe that the shadow of a tree actually is a tree, so that if we saw a real tree, we wouldn't know that it's really a tree. Socrates finished the Allegory of the Cave in his "Republic," writing that one man would be freed from the cave and shown the real world. The light of the sun, the trees, the sky, everything he sees hurts, because he must realize that the world he knew is a fake. Yet once he accepts this truth, he embraces it wholly and goes back to the cave to tell the others.

P.S.- Morpheus' late, great ship was called the Nebuchadnezzar (Mark 3, Number 11: those numbers appear behind Morpheus in the first scene inside the ship, and are one of the bases for the Christianity-allegory concept of the Matrix {thing Mark 3:11, as in the Bible})

Thbbbbt

This post was edited by Magnifico on May 19, 2003.

I disagree with the opinion that the Matrix should have stayed one movie: the end left you wondering what was going to happen next (and I actually enjoyed this movie more; it makes you think a lot more -- plus the great action sequences :D) And by the way, the first movie WAS created with sequels in mind (they would only be produced, however, if the original made enough money)

Do neo's power supercede the Matrix and hold water in the real world? Is this true becuase he choose a different path then the 6 other Neo's before him.

I have two explainations as to why Neo was able to stop the machines (one has been stated above, but here it is again):

1. When Smith tried to "infect" Neo, he did not fully succeed, but he altered Neo's brain patters sufficiently that he is now in tune with machines in the real world and can control them. Remember, Smith did the same thing with Bane (except it worked fully): since he infected Bane, Bane's mind now believes completely that he is Smith; thus, in the Matrix, Bane's "self-image projection" is as Smith. In the real world, however, Bane cannot change his appearance to fit his thoughts, but he does take on Smith's personality, ambitions, etc. The same thing happened with Neo, but to a much smaller degree (the infection didn't work); therefore, Neo can control the machines.

2. When Neo went to the architect, the perfection of the One's code entered his body (through his brain, which is plugged in). If he had gone through the "correct" door, he would reset the Matrix and choose 23 successors to Zion. If he had left through the other door, the perfection in code would have left his body, and he would no longer have any powers. However, Neo did not actually open either door: you never see the door turning (note that throughout the entire movie, the important part about "programmed" doors is the physical action of inserting the key and turning the handle, and he does not turn the handle this time); instead, the room explodes (dunno how... maybe Neo blew it up?) and Neo flies out. So the perfect code stayed inside Neo: thus he is incredible in the Matrix. Also, since everything in the Matrix imprints itself onto the mind, some of his powers in the Matrix transferred to the real world, allowing him to control the machines.

Personally, the first theory here seems a lot more plausible, and I like it a lot more. A friend gave me the 2nd idea, and I thought it was interesting, so I posted it.

The theory about Neo's death making him the 7th "One" is interesting. However, before he dies in the first Matrix, he does not have any powers of the One (he cannot defeat Smith; instead, he has to run to a phone). Notice that after his rebirth, he never has to escape to a phone again (nothing can stop him); before, however, he and the rest had to run to phones all the time.

"It was not God who created man, but man who created God." --Santa Caserio

This may be going off onto an altogether different tangent...but I was rethinking the theory in which Christianity plays an important role in the Matrix trilogy. You've heard the way of thought...that Neo represents Christ and so on. I saw Reloaded yesterday...and the new revelations confused me. The only way I could make sense of it all, more specifically what the Architect said, is to apply the Pseudo-Christian them upon the film...meaning that every character transcends from a biblical character. So who would the Architect be? He claims to know all of the answers, and that he should be trusted. Who in the Bible acts like that? I can only think of the False Prophet. The Antichrist. Any thoughts on the subject?

I believe you are mistaken in that Neo doesn't need a phone, remember in the first movie, he dies, comes back, deals with the agents, than hears Trinity or whatever and rushes back to the phone to get out, than the emp. He could have found a way past that in the second movie, you never see him use a phone, but you don't see anyone but those first two guys use one either. Just a point.

Do you like blue? I hope so, cuz thats the one thing about me that shall never change.

This post was edited by b1uehairedfreak on May 20, 2003.

A quick side note - the first matrix movie was created without the intention of creating any more movies - it should have been kept this way.

I'm not entirely convinced - they certainly kept it wide open for a sequel and the final line certainly indicated that this was just the start of the story but you can never be sure of how well a film will do and whether or not you'll get the funding.

Yeah, but why would the machines want to rebuild Zion and thus form a new resistance? After all, the total destruction of Zion would solve their problem.

Because the only Matrix which has been remotely sucessful has the built in flaw where some people will refuse the Matrix reality and 'wake-up'.
Also there isn't a problem of Zion as far as they are concerned - how could it be a problem if it's been handled several times before (with obvious sucess)?

Oh and they're Sentinels - not Jellyfish!

Why arn't the graphics really ground breaking in the second? Because the First did them first, and the second improved upon the methods.

The effects in the first one were actually much better. They used much more computer generated images in this second one. Pay special attention to the scene where Neo fights the copies of Smith. They are plainly computer generated. The first one used the actual actors much more often and used more advanced camera techniques.

This post was edited by mace on May 21, 2003.

Of course, because there is one agent smith. I've looked into animation (I do lots of photoshop stuff, plan to learn 3dsmax5) and what they did is amazing.

The fact that they seemlessly blended together (as far as the agent smiths go, but neo could have used a little more work on the twising around scene.) If you noticed they all acted individual, which is more than the director could hope for. If they had just did all the agent smith reactions, the movie would have exceded its already huge budget, and that money was saved for the fight scene in revolutions (IN THE RAIN! AWSOME!).

Reloaded did improve on the slow motion scenes (see agent smith fight, twising). It was far more realistic than the first. Mind you, the people doing the matrix were not an established company. A company will probably spring up to take hold of those animators, just as ILM did in star wars, so we have to give them credit. Watch it again (like i wish i could ;) and notice that the animated characters flow and act well, even if they look animated. That is very hard to do with live acting splicings.

Pistol Grip Pump In My Lap At All Times

The fact that they all act differently is nothing new or terribly impressive. Recall Lord of the Rings? :P

LOTR animations were good but no way near as good as the matrix ones. In LOTR they all do the same animation just at different times. In the matrix all the smiths (only smith not agent smith =P ) seem to have their own personality, they don’t do the same animations.

Also the bullet time in the first one was just around in a circle where as in this one you get zooming along with other stuff. The CGI in this one was incredible (I’m a 3d modeler so I know good modeling when I see it) well the twins could have been a bit better, but that’s just my opinion

Did anyone notice that there seems to be several trailers for matrix 3 but all slightly different.
Like in one you see the back of an operator that looks a lot like tank. But didn’t Zee say that see lost 2 brothers to "that ship" so how can he be alive if it is him.

In the trailer you see Trinity fighting some guy in a bondage mask who seems to be walking on the roof. I think the matrix is glitching, maybe because of smith (read below)

An idea I have been kicking around is that in the 3rd one Smith has taken over everyone inside the matrix, well at least that city they are in. If you watch the trailer you see the rows of smiths but if you look up in the windows you see people watching also which makes me think that smith has taken over everyone. You also see him sorta fly... don’t know if he is flying or just diving.

As for Morpheus not having any "powers" out side of the matrix, this would be because although his mind is free its not free like Neos.

"A sentinel for every man woman and child inside Zion"
Ok how would the machines know how many people are inside Zion
They would only know about the people that have been released from the matrix. So what about the "Genuine children of Zion" how do they know how many of them there are.

A sentinel for every man woman and child inside Zion"
Ok how would the machines know how many people are inside Zion
They would only know about the people that have been released from the matrix. So what about the "Genuine children of Zion" how do they know how many of them there are.

Smith affected this guy so he can go to the real world, so maybe the machins have human agents too...

but what i asked myself, the chance that out of 250000 people over a period of 72 hours, a new baby is born, is very big, so what do the machines do then ?

"Oh no, they are one more...dammit we're gonna lose, ok machines, let's leave Zion or this one baby will destroiy us all"

Why do films always have to be with thos exact numbers...i mean in reallife, there are never exactly 250000 inhabitans in a city

cya Magic

"The wise have always said the same things, and fools have always done the opposite"-Schopenhauer

The machines are perfect they will do everything by the numbers. Hence the one for everyone in zion. As morpheus said "Machine logic"

and the idea of human agents would work if there was another matrix. And this is where tank comes into to it (its just an idea im not to sure about it), if tank is in the next movie like i saw on the trailer he could possibly be an agent. Im not saying that everyone that is born in Zion is an agent im just saying that Tank could be.

Well, i agreed (Eljefe) with you fully, until the part of there can't be a matrix within a matrix, because the people in Zion are free??Are they really?? Consider this,that they may have been born not IN THAT 'particular' MATRIX, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're completely free either. Reason: look at the people in the matrix who thought or think they're free. A world that covers their eyes and suppresses their minds from seeing 'THE TRUTH' .Now, as for those in 'ZION'. Try to have an open mind on it like this..and also at least picture it from this perspective?..? It would make sense to feel or sense or even 'SEE' a 'matrix within a matrix' for the simple reason that the human psyche/mind only uses 10% as the average mind capacity. But now, that's not my point..but hold on to it..(for later?) Consider this, there are all sorts of levels when the human psyche or consciousness expands to different levels of reality/dimensions/conscience. Sort of like ascending. And as the Matrix adequately put it, where there's a beginning, there's also a end. But also vice versa starting with end. This is going to get deep, but try to bare with me. I agree totally to what you said, but adding on to it now..
There are things in which people don't believe or have any empirical knowledeg on, which in a sense is ignorance, and just because you don't see it or believe it doesn't mean it can't exist for reality is illusion and illusion is reality. The first Matrix movie even gives hints to it. When 'MOrpheous' was trying to tell or show Neo what the matrix is and what had happen in it's history with the machines to give him update to that particular point as to what had become of the real world. 'Remember' morpheous in Matrix 1 was saying, " WHAT IS REAL, DEFINE REAL? IF YOU ARE SPEAKING ON WHAT YOU CAN TOUCH, TASTE, SEE, OR HEAR; THEN REAL IS NOTHING MORE THAN ELECTRICAL SIGNALS TRAVELED TO YOUR BRAIN." Basically, meaning, what the mind considers by sense to be real is real. Consider this also, that the universe is one big Powerplant, and we are it's generators who can either when 'FULLY CONSCIOUS' or " SELF~REALIZED' can directly generate that power from the source. But when we're 'NOT' fully conscious we only get a part of the picture and these so called miracles or miraculous things happen of course due to cause and effect (meaning law of ONE or duality which becomes ONE) that we only get parts of the source indirectly. It's like a clog artery that only gets part blood circulation to flow correctly. So in other words, the first movie gives off hints for the second and even the third. For all things return from whence they came and that's 'THE or THEIR SOURCE'. To say there is a matrix within a matrix, to me from personally experiencing the unimagineable in my life and discovering truth and seeing parts or fragments of THE TRUTH. I definitely can relate to the Matrix movie..cause in acutality..we live in a MATRIX. All things have truth in them. i didn't say THE TRUTH, i said 'TRUTH'. Neo went through a Christ type simulation as far as resurrection or buddha which means 'Enlightend one or awakend one'; after the first Matrix movie he was more self~realized, but still has to go through different ascensions and inner~discoveries before he'll 'FULLY' be able to realized who he truly is. He knows , but he doesn't remember 'why?' as the oracle also said in the Matrix 1, but more obviously in Matrix reloaded. 'Choice' is the option. He's already made, but doesn't remember or know why. NOw, question that is so obvious to 'viewers' of the movie is: "What happen in the 'REAL WORLD' when he stopped the squiddies/sentients well, it could obviously be looked at from infinite angles , but i'm going to speak on my theory. i believe all beings have the possibitly to awakend the christ conciousness from within. i'm not a new ager or have a certain religion. But i can see and relate all things. Even though Neo is like a Christ type being with Zion in it as well as the bible's zion. Morpheous of course could be looked at as a guide or John the Baptist..and Trinity well the name speaks for itself. But, the next Matrix (matrix:revolutions)seems that it 'possibly' will reveal that we have to get past the first level of matrixes to overcome the external. Obviously in the mind of Neo, Morphoeous, Trinity and others unplugged/saved/awakend they have put that the world they're in is the real. But again, it's another Matrix, that has to be broken. Now obviously the question from most of you is this to me. Explain the machines and they're take over of humans in the 'real world' who's they're architect/creator. It's all the same!! These worlds contain truths in them, but not the clear picture. One must completely free their minds to see these truths and must experience the inner world of fears,phobias, doubts and unlock the SOURCE from which all things are. Then they'll be able to utilize that inner awareness to the external or outer world. Which is actually a manifestation of innerness. What's on the inside comes to the outside. Neo in the third, I THINK will have to go into isolation/meditation/coma and discover what he's still "WAITING FOR' as the oracle said in the matrix one. i know yall are thinking that was only before Agent Smith shot him and he resurrected. But that part also goes with the third movie. Look at the first two movies again. And study them.That's my theory on the matrix within the matrix. Sorry , this was so long. But i had to speak MY MIND. But like i said, this could be looked at from many angles. None of the perspectives are wrong. Just truths/puzzles that have to be put together. Thank yall for reading. Feel free to respond. God~Bless and peace!

This post was edited by TheCREATOR on Oct 22, 2003.

Since my post I have heard another theory (really though provoking). If you have seen 'The Second Renissance' parts 1 and 2 (part of the animatrix, you can see them free on the animatrix website) you saw the nukes dropped. Well, we all should know that a nuke, when it explodes, sends out an emp that is quite larger than the blast radius (I don't know exactly how much), so that emp blast should have disabled the robots. The theory goes as this: The humans actually won the war, and to contain the machines, wrote the matrix for them to live in in which they thought that they won.

That just takes it to a whole new level of complexity. The machines are in the matrix, and the machines built the matrix for the 'humans' in their matrix. Good god, it is like dominos.

Pistol Grip Pump In My Lap At All Times

The theory that Neo, Morpheus, and the whole menagerie are the AI programs is actually a pretty strong one, at least to me. I can't find the site that explains that theory, but it's definitely one of the stronger ones I've seen thus far. Doesn't it seem strange how you can jack a brain into a computer and instantly download information? Or how the machines know how many people are in Zion? Or any number of other things in the movie. It's curious.

Thbbbbt

Could it not just be that the matrix is producing lots of sentinels i.e. around 250,000 which are descending upon the city not that the system produces exactly the same amount?

Also, I don't think that Smith has taken over evryone in the Matrix- I still don't reckon that he knows his new purpose. I believe that he knows what Neo is there to do but not what HE is meant to do, now that he has witnessed something that was outside the parameters of his programming. Having gone 'renegade' he is now looking for what it is he is there for- possibly a relic of his nature as being an agent?!

Also I had an idea about it (I know that its probably stupid to put it into nowadays comouter terms but i have!!). How about that the Architect has designed the Matrix as a way to control the humans and get the best 'power' out of them as they/we are only being used as batteries! He then leaves in renegades such as Neo to test his programming (seen in the fact that there have been another 5 Ones before). He then studies the behaviour of the renegade and reprogammes the Matrix to cut out the problems- as the Architect himself said- the previous work was pretty flawed.

Just though I should share my thoughts with you all!

This post was edited by jdavey82 on May 30, 2003.

Having gone 'renegade' he is now looking for what it is he is there for- possibly a relic of his nature as being an agent?!

Yet for some reason Smith has found a purpose for his new found liberty: Find and kill Neo.

I really don't understand why he is so bound on doing that. Fine, it used to be his job but now he doesn't have to follow anyone's orders anymore.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

There are two things to remember here. First of all, when neo chooses the door on the left, everything changes and his actions become beyond the realm of the Matrix control (as he is the first One to ever make this choice. His powers have now become magnified (his speed in flight, his reviving of Trinity, and I believe his destruction of the squidies). He is able to destroy the squidies because he has a connection to the machines that no one else has, he is physically and mentally attatched to the machines.

In order to predict the next matrix movie we have to anylize what Smith has become. In my opinion Smith has become a virus, infecting the minds of the people in the matrix. Every time he does this he becomes more powerful. He is going to eventually come to infect every mind connected to the matrix (and possibly programs, as we see that he can replicate himself from another agent). He is going to become the key here, holding both the machines hostage (if he controls every body attatched to the matrix then he completely controles the power source) and the humans as well (he holds every human mind attatched to the matrix hostage). However, Smith also now has an insight into what it means to be human having inhabited a human body. SO the question is, what happens in and what leads up to the final fight between Neo and Smith (Smith is obviously becomeing more and more powerful)? Will Neo destroy the Smith Program completely, killing every human attatched to the Matrix? Will Smith, perhaps turn on the machines, having a new knowledge of what it means to be human and gaining a certain respect for humanity?
(as I was writing this I came up with something, if anyone has seen the trailer at the end of the Enter the Matrix game, there is a point where Morpheus says "he fights for us" perhaps he is talking about Smith, or maybe they send the guy who Smith infected in the real world back into the Matrix, and that Smith will fight for the humans.)
Oh my god my head is going to fall off. Well all I know is that all questions will be answered in November and I can hardly wait, tell me what you think about my theories.
Mindlessly Indulged

Nice post.

For some reason I had never thought Smith had infected the traitor before. I always thought he would have had his own reasons for his betrayal (did I miss a key scene here?).

But now that I read what you wrote it makes perfect sense, of course.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

I've been reading some of your ideas and they are quite interesting.
I support the theory that Zion is still inside the Matrix (or another Matrix) and has been programmed for those who need to make their own choices (let's call them rebels). Otherwise how can we explain that a virus such as Mr. Smith can be transferred to 'the real world'? He transfers to the 'real world' as a virus would infect another system. A virus cannot infect other but software. It would be like us talking on a phone and being infected by a computer virus (?????). There are some basics that still apply in the trilogy, and one is that software is software. Mr. Smith finds a new communication channel he did not know it existed by infecting the first guy (don't remember his name).
The other point that supports this theory is that Neo stops those sentinels because he now knows he's still in the matrix and therefore everything is still set by rules (which he can break - that's what gives him the power he has). Why didn't he stop sentinels before? Simply because he thought he was in the real world. And now that he knows it he’s got to learn how to apply his powers to the new environment.
I don't think he acquires any more powers when he goes through the left door, or that he is half human half machine. They would have shown some kind of scene that made it clearer.
And again, those are just my thoughts!

Ok, I've started to notice a point of linguistics here; some people refer to the machine's best weapon against Zion, "Sentinels," as Sentinals, and others call 'em squids, squidies, etc. Somebody brought up the concept of whether or not Smith will turn good. . .

Watch the first Matrix; the Agents, members of the System, refer to them as Sentinels. The resisters, Morpheus and his menagerie, refer to them as squids. Since Smith has infected Bane, and Bane is the only survivor of the attack, I wouldn't expect action at the very beginning of the following sequence in the next film. Perhaps they're gonna grill Smith/Bane about what happened. Listen to what he calls the Sentinels. . .

Thbbbbt

Interesting thoughts, but i still believe that it is possible for Smith to infect peroples brain. I don't believe that your analogy of talking on the phone is correct, because remember, these electrical signals are being downloaded directly into their brains. When neo is learning martial arts (I know Kung Fu) it's being sent from the computer into his brain...he absorbs the program. The traitor has absorbed the Smith program...

Is my point a little clearer?

Also, on the Matrix within the Matrix idea, I don't think this is possible. If there were a matrix within a matrix, wouldn't the machines simply unplug the rebels in the real (real) world? No, I think my theory is more feasable, being the one, neo has a connection witht he machines that no one else has, and this extends to the real world. And remember, this has never happened before, the one has never taken the door on the left so this is all new to the machines as well as neo. This is going to be paramount to the plot of revolutions because all this time neo had great powers, but was still within the constraints of the matrix. Now his power (at least some of it) extends into the real world and beyond machine control, the playing field is leveled. However, destroying the sentinals put him into a coma, so he can't simply destroy all the machines by sheer will. I think much of the next movie will deal with this. Just as the first one ended with neo flying off into the sky and discovering his new powers, so did reloaded, only this time neo only has 72 hours in which to discover his full potential...exciting isn't it.
Mindlessly_Indulged

When neo is learning martial arts (I know Kung Fu) it's being sent from the computer into his brain...he absorbs the program. The traitor has absorbed the Smith program...
Is my point a little clearer?

Thanks for pointing that out. This finally is an understandable explanation for infection being possible at all.

Also, on the Matrix within the Matrix idea, I don't think this is possible. If there were a matrix within a matrix, wouldn't the machines simply unplug the rebels in the real (real) world?

They could, but if there was a Matrix within the Matrix the whole war would have been staged by the machines anyway.

I personally don't believe in the Matrix within Matrix thing because it would be a pretty cheap trick to tie up the loose ends of the plot in Revolutions. It would be like the protagonist waking up in the end of the movie and it had all been a dream. Not a very satisfying ending.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Alright, I see your point about the transferring of the virus. I guess the question now would be: Does Neo know martial arts in the real world? Or does he just know how to stimulate his brain in the matrix to do the martial arts? Cause there hasn't been any fighting in the real world and there’s no way to know it. If the answer is that Neo has learned kung fu then it is totally understandable how the virus goes into the real world… otherwise it’s just a brain stimulation effect.
Also a good point on the unplugging the rebels. But then, how would you explain the choice the architect gives Neo about choosing 20 people to rebuild Zion?
I have the script of the whole movie and I cannot find the answers to these questions… I guess the third part will explain everything...

Does Neo know martial arts in the real world? Or does he just know how to stimulate his brain in the matrix to do the martial arts?

I'd say he knows Kung Fu in the real world but of course he would be limited to the capabilities of his body there. The training program could teach a couch potatoe to be an acrobat inside the Matrix, but to do the same in the real world you still need to train your body into shape.

But then, how would you explain the choice the architect gives Neo about choosing 20 people to rebuild Zion?

The machines need Zion to keep busy the 0.05% of the human population that will always reject the illusion of the Matrix. For those people the whole Zion/resistance farce is being played.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

From what I can gather, the Matrix needs to have a Zion so that they can have a level of control of the free human minds- therefore they can instigate the idea of the prophecy and thus drive the One to his full potential. He is then aimed towards the Source by the Oracle and then his programming (ie his brain pattern) is feed back into the Matrix so that it becomes a better system as it learns more about the nature of humankind.

I watched the film again the other day and enjoyed it more than the first time I saw it and it made a lot more sense? (I think) I noticed more the way in which it parodies the first movie (the whole idea of it being "reloaded") - Neo thinks its all lost then finds his new power, squiddie-zapping! He says at the end "Somethings different, I can feel it now" which is pretty similar to what he says in the phonebooth at the end of the first movie. Thus I think that he is starting to realise his power outside of the matrix, as he was doing at the end of the first fim.

I would also like to add my opinion against the idea of a matrix within a matrix. I would like to think that the Wacko brothers would not go with such a cop out ending- the kind of thing you do when you are writing essays as a kid! Plus the title "Revolutions" leads one to think that something actually happens!

Au revoir.

The more I ponder the Smith question, the more I wonder if maybe he will become semi-alligned with the resistance as a counter-Matrix force; the site Jaz mentioned here talks a lot about growth (spiritual and physical). They mention that the machines really don't change until they have to (Neo becomes the One, then *bing!* Upgraded Agents; the humans torch the sky and the machines then become reliant on human-power, etc.), but humans undergo constant growth. In fact, you see this in the development of the characters: the love between Trinity and Neo (Trinity means three in one, but I thought in Reloaded that it looked more like the One was in "Three." badump-psh!), Morpheus' love interest appears, while the attitude of Cypher stays the same (bad-guy), The Agents only begin to fight in three dimensions when Neo becomes a threat from above as well as from any other directions, etc. However, Smith shows himself to have "grown." He can replicate, he has a purpose beyond seek and destroy, and he's grown away from the Matrix.

It sort of makes you wonder if it'll become "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," since Smith will become a target for the agents of the system to remove. . .

Thbbbbt

I too am in the thinking that Smith will become allies with the resistance in the next movie. The way I see it it seems that there is already a two horse race going on to conquer the Matrix between the resistance and the Merril-Vyngian (?). I think that although Smith is still running along the lines of his original operating commands (trying to kill Neo) he will eventually join the resistance and destroy the Matrix.

The reason for this is that when Neo flew into him in the first movie, Neo "imprinted something on him"- something of human nature & survival. Thus I think that Smith in himself has become partly human and will eventually help the humans, even though he is still trying to kill them now- I thus think that Bane will be an important link between the humans and Smith (seen by the fact that Neo and him are lying head to head on the Hammer at the end of reloaded!)

Anyway, glad you agree with my comments Jaz!

I'm not sure that Smith will join the other side, but there could be some sort of alliance on the whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" concept. I don't really know what the Merovingian is trying to do, but the great folks over at fUSION Anomaly made a great point on their n0de about the Matrix: all of the good guys in the first Matrix had round sunglasses, and all of the bad guys had square sunglasses (both Smith and Cypher). In Matrix:Reloaded; guess what Smith has on. . .

6-sided sunglasses. I counted, multiple times, and he's got glasses that aren't really round (a computer's best approximation of round is based on the pixel. . .), but not square. Another one of those little things that only the Wakowski brothers or Akira Kurosawa would've bothered with.

Thbbbbt

Hey I think Agent Smith will and has assisted the Resistance.

How about this for an idea,

Neo didn't stop the sentinels. Neo and everyone were supposed to be killed after they left the matrix by the Sentinels (as The Architect implied), but something changed. Someone in the Real World saved them by doing the most improbable and unhumanly thing imaginable. A human used an EMP wave to destroy one of there main defensive posts, to save the One.

Agent Smith saved Neo and accidently Zion by doing what he did.

A human used an EMP wave to destroy one of there main defensive posts, to save the One.

But why would that save Neo and company?

Hey I think Agent Smith will and has assisted the Resistance.

I believe there will be alliances forged between man and machine in Revolutions. The question is whether it will be Smith who is the other part of the deal. The Revolutions didn't really show Neo and Smith cuddling with each other...

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

OOPs. Sorry.
I am impling that an EMP blast is what stopped the Sentinels from killing Neo.

Thanks for clarifying!

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

"All of the good guys in the first Matrix had round sunglasses, and all of the bad guys had square sunglasses (both Smith and Cypher). In Matrix:Reloaded; guess what Smith has on. . .

6-sided sunglasses. I counted, multiple times, and he's got glasses that aren't really round (a computer's best approximation of round is based on the pixel. . .), but not square. Another one of those little things that only the Wakowski brothers or Akira Kurosawa would've bothered with."

Hmmm..so..you're saying that Smith has a 'DOUBLE AGENDA' meaning. his actions aren't only two~dimensional?

Another key, i want to put out people is remember in Reloaded when Morpheous, the keymaker and Neo were in the hallway dimension/portal and Smith said to Neo when Neo asked him "what do you want Smith?" And Smith replied/answered back with, " Well, i would've thought you would've figured that out by now. Still using all the muscles, except the one that counts?I want what you want; i want it ALL." My guess in that small, but significant responds was. Neo, is the one, but the fight is for FREEDOM AND CONTROL. Just like in the Matrix 1 movie at the end when Neo said, " i'm going to show the world , what you don't want me to..a world with no rules..where anything is possible. And where we take it from there is up to you!" Now, i agree with someone on this site who said neo imprinted maybe some human traits off of himself onto Smith. BUT, think about what NIOBE (Jada pickette~smith) said in the Matrix:Revolutions trailer.. when Morpheous said,You don't believe in THE ONE, who is going to save us.She replied back by saying, " I still don't believe in "THE ONE" ; i believe 'in' NEO!" Now, what if Neo and Agent Smith are not only battling for souls of Man/humanity but for POWER. GOD/DEVIL..the world; the throne/the matrix! Even though the obvious is they both were 'PROGRAMMED/PREDESTINED to carry out a certain pattern/code or act a certain way. They were meant to find out. If nothing as Morpheous said in Reloaded is an accident..then Smith and Neo being now almost 'IDENTICAL' in strenghts and awareness, but neither knowing FULLY their purpose. Who is who? Remember, NIobe's line said, she didn't believe in the ONE as almost if saying. I don't believe in this predestined prophecy. I believe in Neo. meaning Neo...has already change predestiny, but doing what his 5 prodecessors didn't do. And by him (NOT COINCIDENTALLY) doing what he did to Smith in the Matrix 1. That means, they are fighting to see what side because the soul or ere to the throne. What if they become ONE IN THE SAME! and that is what THE ONE means? hmmm???

This post was edited by TheCREATOR on Oct 22, 2003.

When I saw Bane hooked up next to Neo I immediately thought that Bane was downloading information from Neo...I started thinking that Bane is a mole that will transfer his gathered info to a new set of upgrades. Those upgrades will be so much more advanced that they will be able to take out most people in Zion through combat....

I have the dialogue between Neo and the architect if anyone would like to read it. Here it is:

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting
for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your
consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you
will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your
first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is
also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced
equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality
of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to
eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.
While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and
thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Others? What
others? How many? Answer me!'*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from
the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in
which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Five
versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****.*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no
one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's
systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: You
can't control me! **** you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do
anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the
Architects room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it
was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its
monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now
as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I
redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying
grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I
have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required
a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of
perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive
program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human
psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its
mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution
whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as
they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a
near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously
fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic
anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo,
those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would
constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its
every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bull****.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Bull****!*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.
But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we
have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects
room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source,
allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the
prime program. after which you will be required to select from the matrix
23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with
this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone
connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will
ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept.
However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the
responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of
people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five
predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent
affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of
your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others
experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more
specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the
monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the
cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the
fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both
beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to
the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to
the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put,
the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't
we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that
signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and
reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and
obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to
stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion,
simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest
weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

I was very impressed by the dialogue of this scene. I'd like to brainstorm with anyone who has ideas of the meanings of the statements. I noticed philosophical references as well as religious symbolism...So, who wants to take the red pill?

I would like to think that the Wacko brothers would not go with such a cop out ending- the kind of thing you do when you are writing essays as a kid!

I knew someone would come up with the words I was looking for :)

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Yeah i agree, what a let down, dont you hate it when films get all the hype. I think this ones just a money maker, i didnt like it at all it was too predictable, they try an surprise ou with all these little crappy scenarios and what might be, ooh ahh, all the fighting scenes ive seen before when i was about 10, the only differance was it was a jackie chan film, all the charecters wasnt nothing knew, the Terminator, Tron (3d) Aliens, u name it, its all been done. it was a bit crappy how reeves beat up around 200 at once and then in the one on one fights he just about scrapes through, that bores me. Plus you knew theyd pull through, you knew she wouldnt fall lada lada lada lada so on, then reeves saved the day as predicted. i think you can overdo special effects. every hit was slowed down, then someone gets punched in the stomach and suddenly there doing backwards somursauts flying through the air? Im definatly not seeing number three the bastards. i hate it when filmmakers take the money route rather than sticking to the plan man,

i dont have a dream "I HAVE A SCHEME"