Reading Philosophy

Karma is a sanskrit term that signifies action or deed. Any physical or mental action is karma. Thinking is mental karma. Karma is the sum total of our acts, both in the present life and in the preceding births.

Karma means not only action, but also the result of an action. The consequence of an action is really not a separate thing. It is a part of the action and cannot be divided from it. The law of karma means the law of causation. Wherever there is a cause, there an effect must be produced.

To sum up : if we do bad, we get bad and vice versa.

Now if you put the idea of karma into your mind and go about your daily life, would'nt that make you a very selfish person.

The reason i say this is because you are doing good because you want good, you know you'll get good from the effect of karma.

Why not do good and not expect anything from it? Would'nt that be better to follow?

NI

Now if you put the idea of karma into your mind and go about your daily life, would'nt that make you a very selfish person.

No because if you do good things than other people will recieve the product of your goodness. And vice versa. Its not selfish. Its the golden rule. Do onto others as you would have them do unto you.

Why not do good and not expect anything from it? Would'nt that be better to follow?

This works once in a while but humans want to be rewarded. We need to be rewarded so that we will keep on doing good things, everybody needs a pat on the back once in a while. Its healthy and nobody realistically can expect anybody to do something for nothing over and over again and never expect something in return.

Would you just keep on doing things when you know you'll never get anything in return for it? I wouldn't. But if there is that chance that you will get something in return for it than that makes all the difference in the world.

I was still confused as to the exact definition of karma so I did a little more reading on it and this is what I came up with.

Karma it seems has three types :

1. Satvik karma which are selfless acts of giving with the aim of helping others.

2. Rajasik karma which are basically selfish acts for the purpose of self gain.

3. Tamasik karma where the selfish act is inflicted for the sole purpose of hurting.

From these definitions I would say that most humans practice the second kind; rajasik karma.

I guess I could then be partially right in saying that karma is selfish.

NI

Sorry, but the Golden Rule is also selfish. Think of what you just wrote: Do onto others as you would have them do unto you. How is that NOT serfish? By virtue of it being the "Golden Rule", somehow that makes it automatically un-selfish? More to the point, this "Rule" (Karma is also considered a "rule") gives us the WHY we should do our best for others...because it will IMPACT us directly. I don't want to get slapped in the face. It hurts. It stings. I don't like pain. I won't hit that person. I will be nice to that other person. I don't like rejection, it makes me feel squishy inside. It just doesn't get more selfish than that.

But this is only half of the discussion. The just-as-major question to me is: Is it preferable to be selfish or non-selfish? I'm thinking it's actually preferable to be selfish. Having children is pretty GD selfish, but it's also necessary for the survival of our bloodline, and the human race in general.

And I'll even postulate the following, in reference to: " But if there is that chance that you will get something in return for it than that makes all the difference in the world." (You started out saying that you'd not keep doing a thankless task, but then said I might after all. I'm paraphrasing, I know; but that's essentially where your viewpoint ended.) The postulate: being a smart person, you know very well that you won't do a thankless job indefinitely. Karma, or not, there needs to be a pay-off. That is simple human nature. Those who don't get that, I submit, are broken people who hold very little hope. And I'll tell you what, I have no problems doing things in my life that are going to give me some kinda reward

Sure, Karma is selfish, but by virtue of mind, it's inescapable. The point of the Teachings of Karma are to simply remind us to step lightly, and don't hold our riches here on earth. The bible also teaches the same thing in its parables.

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

Sorry, but the Golden Rule is also selfish. Think of what you just wrote: Do onto others as you would have them do unto you. How is that NOT serfish? By virtue of it being the "Golden Rule", somehow that makes it automatically un-selfish?

Selfish in the sense that I would not do anything to anybody that I would not want done to me. Sure its selfish but it keeps you honest. Surely we can never abide by it 100% of the time but its a damn good rule to live by. Sometimes selfish is not so bad of a thing.

I happen to like being appreciated. So in return I can try my best to show others that I appreciate them, its good business. Just as I want to be appreciated for the things I do, I show appreciation for the people in my life. I did not do this before two months ago. I just started living by this rule and now is never too late to start doing good things. Sure it may be selfish in my own respect because I want appreciation in return. I won't always get it, sometimes I will but its a good trade off. You convey to others that you are a caring and conisderate person and in return you will be appreciated at some point. Its a game of chance. Sometimes you'll win and sometimes you'll loose. Its a game worth playing.

But call it Karma or Golden Rule it really doesn't matter. I'm more interested in gaining some type of acceptance into greater society. Instead of being a head in the crowd I'm trying to become a good person, show people that I'm generally a good person who does good things and start living with a purpose instead of stealing oxygen.

But as you were saying about selfishness. Its a needed characteristic of being alive. My body needs food to survive so am I selfish for eating. Yes.

I need love. Am I selfish for giving love and expecting love in return? Yes. However, depression seems like a dark solemn road to travel. I'd rather be selfish.

We all have needs and we all do different things to fulfill those needs. Some needs are more selfish than others but nonetheless need to be filled in some manner or other. My point being selfishness mixed with a nice balance of giving will do us all good in the long run.

My friend, if I may, you've contradicted yourself over the past two posts. First Karma wasn't selfish, but, like the Golden Rule, simply a way to live. Then, the following post it became selfish. I think that when people think about it, they inevitably come to the conclusion that karma is selfish. So what?

Again, I refer to the context of my point. You not doing something because you don't want something bad to happen TO YOU is selfish. Period. So what? The intent I think is to say "oh, that has to be bad because it's labled 'selfish.'" How is that a BAD thing? It's like poeople don't want to simply say "It's selfish." They have to give an explanation or justification as to WHY. (And no offense to what you're saying; this was a general statement.)

This whole issue is actually a mental trap. I have to go with what I said in the original post, as the only release there from. If one stops thinking about what it is, and why, then the argument becomes moot, and one is on his/her way to enlightenment. And THAT is the purpose of the teachings of Karma--ultimately enlightenment.

Once Fred Neitszche declared God is Dead, f*ck became the most important word in the English languag

Do onto others as you would have them do unto you. How is that NOT serfish?

The idea is to remind yourself that everything you do to somebody is going to evince some kind of emotion, and as long as you remind yourself of how bad you feel when you're hurt by somebody, you'll realize how you make other people feel when you hurt them. It's not selfishness, it's decency.

I'll believe in anything if you'll just believe in anything

Not doing something for yourself is selfish, doing something for yourself at the expense of something else is.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Not doing something for yourself is selfish

I guess you meant :
Doing something for yourself is not selfish.

To clear things out i've got some examples to put down how the above three mentioned karma's would affect a person.

One thing we know, is that according to the principle of karma, destiny is unavoidable (according to the Oxford English Dictionary one definition of karma is destiny).

But the method of facing, accepting, suffering or enjoying the destiny/karma is different with different kinds of people.

For example, Mr. A did one sinful action as a result of which it is destined that he shall have to starve and go without meals for one day.

(1 ) Now, if he is a SATVIK man (of pious mentality and motives), he will voluntarily observe a holy fast or something; prayers maybe and keep his mind engaged in pious thoughts and prayers for the whole day. In this way he will willingly accept his destiny of going without meals for one day and thereby he will neutralise his previous sin. Not only that but while thus mitigating and exhausting his destiny he will also earn the fruits of new pious actions of voluntarily observing fast and chanting the name of God. Such pious deeds will again ripen as a new good destiny for him to enjoy subsequently.

(2) However supposing he is a RAJSIK man (of pragmatic but selfish mentality or motives), one day for some very urgent and important work, he was compelled by his boss to labour for the whole day in his factory and the poor fellow could not find any time even to take his lunch and dinner and had to go without meals and starve on that day. Thus he had to face, accept, mitigate and exhaust the destiny of his previous sinful action.

(3) And, supposing he is a TAMSIK man (of crooked temperament or mentality and motives), one day he quarrelled with his wife merely for the sake of satisfying his crooked motives. Overcome by his furious anger he rashly skipped his meals during the whole day and in this way he suffered the destiny of his previous sinful actions. In the process, he also earned and accumulated one new sinful action which would again ripen as a new bad luck in due course of time, thus bringing more suffering in future.

Taking another converse example of Mr. B, supposing he did one pious deed as a result of which it is destined that he will get 100 dollars some day when that action is matured.

(1) Mr. B is a Custom Officer at an international airport. One day while checking the baggage of a smuggler, he found items of questionable legality. But when the smuggler gave him a bribe of 100 dollars, he allowed the baggage to go without checking. Thus he enjoyed the destiny of his previous pious action by getting 100 dollars. But being a TAMSIK man, he earned it by crooked means and thereby he created a new sinful action which would again mature and ripen as a new bad luck which he will have to face in future-say by giving 200 dollars to a doctor for the treatment of his leg injured in an accident.

(2) However, if he is not a Tamsik man but a RAJSIK man, he would refuse to accept the bribery of 100 dollars and take legal action against the smuggler. In that case
his destiny of getting 100 dollars is postponed for some later time, but it will not be lost. This destiny will not rest till he has anyhow reaped the benefit of 100 dollars.
One day, he unexpectedly purchased a T.V. Set on payment of only 400 dollars even though its reasonable market price was 500 dollars, as the dealer charged him 100 dollars less only because he happened to be a customs officer. Thus he got the benefit of 100 dollars due to his previous good deed.

(3) If he is a man of SATWIK temperament, he would refuse to take indirect advantage of his post by paying 100 dollars less. In that case, his destiny of getting the benefit of 100 dollars would be postponed for a while, but again it will not rest until he actually gets 100 dollars in his pocket by some other means.
A few days later, one passenger in a great hurry forgot on his table a purse containing 1000 dollars. From the identity card found in the purse, he immediately ran down to the house of the passenger and gave him his purse. The passenger was delighted and raptured with joy. Being overwhelmed with gratitude he most humbly, gratefully and with great satisfaction gave him a reward of 100 dollars for his nobility. Thus while enjoying his destiny of getting 100 dollars, he also earned one new pious action which would in turn ripen as a new destiny bringing him further joy and happiness.

Thus the Satvik man enjoys his good luck with pious mentality by satisfying others, the Rajsik man with selfish mentality gets his good luck in bargaining with others and
the Tamasik man by torturing others. In any case destiny destiny does not rest until the person has suffered or enjoyed and exhausted it.

I hope this clears things out.

NI

Karma also dies in closely with Dharma; as in, according to the Hindu religion, if you had bad karma in a apst life, it is reflected by a lower caste or bad luck in your current life. People who expirience this be the best they can be, follow their dharma exceptionally, to make up for their past life/lives which gave them such bad karma.

So it's not just doing good deeds that creates good karma, its following your dharma, your life's path, being the best you can not only to others but to yourself.

Karma is not a selfish thought, it's basicly a way to be a good person, to reach maksha (Maksha, for those of you who don't know, is the breaking out of rebirth, your soul has been so elightened that it needs not be reborn, so it become immortal, a part of the universe), and to be able to live the best life you can live.

I totally understand, however, the way you see it; it does look like the only reason you do good is to get good karma, and therefore helping yourself. But it's a much better way to help yourself, then to get everything you want through violence and force, isn't it now?

I'm very handy with a meat-cleaver, ~Arei Drea