Reading Philosophy

May 31, 2004 01:46 # 22918

Noblelement * wants to know...

Wicca or Christian?

98% | 7

First off, i'd like to say that this post will probably get very long so I PLEASE ask you to take the time to read through it and comment.. you will make atleast one person living in this world very happy.

I grew up in a very catholic home - you know, family prayers/devo's, private school, first communion and lent. Reconcilliation, stations of the cross, the whole shebangs. I went to an amazing christian camp when i was in fifth grade and it was a totally indescribable experience (If you're a christian and know what it's like to actually get into adoration for the first time.. that's been me every summer for about five years.) For atleast 1/4 of the year every year, I had strong christian beliefs and was very happy with it. For atleast 12 years of my so far 16 year life, i was, atleat outwardly, content with being a christian. (as well as inwardly, if it comes down to that.)

Starting in about sixth grade, I started getting into alternative religion.. mostly wicca and various versions of neopagan type religions. I'm not sure what compelled me to start looking into it.. i suspect perhaps preteen rebellion or perhaps spending too much time on the internet... But when I started Highschool i started to get serious about it. I began to research some of the actual "belief systems" of the religions, forming what I considered to be my own personal beliefs. (It ended up to be a wierd mix between christianity, wicca, and chinese taoism.. mostly the latter 2.)

I started a grimoire (or however spelled) - i wrote down tarot readings that I had done, god and goddess charges, thoughts, meditations, a few poems and a couple drawings.. i had a makeshift in-cogneto or however spelled alter.. insense, motif size candles and the likes.. If that gives you any sort of idea the kinds of things I would do. No serious spellworking or anything like that. Not even a protection spell. For me, it was all about the God and Goddess.

Now sometime between palm sunday and holy thursday this year, my parents found out about my religious expeditions, so to speak. They were not happy in the least - they reacted just the way I expected them to: They would not at all whatsoever accept me if i wasn't christian. The worst part about it is that they were rational, they were calm and they made sense.

It was wierd when I talked to them - it was like everything I thought was firm ground started crumbling beneath my feet.. They slowly, mechanically and logically took apart all my arguments for wiccanism. After a while of arguing it stopped making sense.

Living as a wiccan, I had been satisfied to a point. It kept my mind occupied so that I wouldn't have to own up to the fact that I wasn't completely satisfied and that i couldn't ever be if i were to live as a commited witch. (I have friends that are living proof.)

Anybody who has accepted Christ knows how hard it is to realize that Jesus is the only way to true happiness. Now, I don't mean to sound like a complete and total Jehova's Witness, but for me, growing up christian has made it so that I will never be able to leave behind christianity without remorse or doubt.

My dillema is this: As much as I know and have experienced and shed tears over the fact that I cannot and won't be happy as a wiccan, I still miss it. It's like having a boyfriend that hurts you repeatedly.. but you can't stop loving him. I know that not living as a christian will only hurt me, my family and my social life on multiple levels, but I can't help but wish that there was some way that I could completely leave my christian doubts behind me and commit myself to wiccanism.

My confirmation won't be for another two years, but I can't keep living with all these doubts about something that hits so close to my heart... What do you guys advise?

Squee. Squee, I say!

May 31, 2004 14:03 # 22925

Sanguis *** replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

98% | 3

Most juvelines endure a phase of spiritual emptiness and seek for another way of living in terms of spirituality. Often they find this way in rather exotic philosophies or religions like Wicca. While the newly adapted philosophy or religion seems inspiring at first, soon one will experience that the hopes one put in the philosophie were highly overrated.

In your case, this was when you spoke out with your parents and they took a part your arguments for the Wiccan religion. It is only normal, that after that argument you still feel connected to Wiccan religion anyway. A decision in such a thing as spirituality is never easy and often bears a huge load of doubts whether the decision was right or not.

Basically, I think there are two possible solutions:

Solution I
You wait and slowly the doubts will fade away, thus allowing you to life as a Christian, who had experiences with the Wiccan religion before.

Solution II
You accept, that there are things in both religions that you liked. Try to connect those things and find your own way with Jesus (and Christanity) which does not follow the bible and dogmas word by word but common sense and also the things you learned from the Wiccan religion.

Personally, I think that solution II would suit one better, just because I have the firm belief, that one has to find an own way of spirituality and can not simply use another one's beliefs word by word.

"Ignorance is the night of the mind, but a night without moon and star." -Confucius

Jun 01, 2004 01:40 # 22935

Bunk *** replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

89% | 3

Even though I don't believe in god or Christ, I believe you when you say Jesus is the only way to find happyness. His love, his acceptance, his forgiveness, all are beyond infinite and unmeasureable in size, simply because his very existence defies definition. God cannot be proven to exist, and that is what makes him most believable, for all that is required is faith, a faith that can never be cast into doubt by others. No one can ever logically, or within reason disprove the existence of god, because that very existence lies beyond the realm of our ability to explain.

Your parents may have been able to explain away your Wicca beliefs simply because you viewed them as an alternative to Christianity. I agree with Sanquis that a comprimise is in order: perhaps Wicca can help you deal with the world around you, and Christianity with what is beyond anyone's perception.

But I can't find no place or nothin', where thrills are cheap, and love is divine

Jun 01, 2004 01:54 # 22936

Noblelement * replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

?% | 1

perhaps Wicca can help you deal with the world around you, and Christianity with what is beyond anyone's perception.

That sounds like a good idea.. except for the fact that you can't be sort of one thing and sort of another thing when it comes to Christianity. When it comes down to it, you can't believe that there are any other powers working in the world besides god because they believe that all things happen through the holy trinity and god's will. Even evil things cannot happen without god's permission - nothing can occur if it were not for a greater good. (sort of quoting My Other Self and own mother) If you look at my sitch through this perspective, it wouldn't work for me to think of the world in this way... except for those times when it messes my life up royally or stops making sense. That's just.. well it sounds wrong in my head, i hope it looks wrong in print too.

Hm.

Squee. Squee, I say!

Jun 01, 2004 02:28 # 22939

Bunk *** replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

I guess I don't know enough about Wicca/Christianity to say if they are exclusive. I guess it depends how subconcious your faith is...

But I can't find no place or nothin', where thrills are cheap, and love is divine

Jun 01, 2004 03:08 # 22942

Noblelement * replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

I guess I don't know enough about Wicca/Christianity to say if they are exclusive. I guess it depends how subconcious your faith is...

Wicca is not exclusive in the least. Christianity is the thing that poses the problem.

Considering that I am a bred and born catholic, I'd say the whole jesusfishness thing is engrained pretty deeply.. (otherwise i wouldn't have had so many inhibitions about switching religions to start with.)

Squee. Squee, I say!

Jun 01, 2004 08:13 # 22944

MrVicious *** replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

If you really want to get a grip on either side, or maybe try and find a blend of both, you should really research the hell out of both religions and form your own opinion. Make yourself the expert on the subject.

Personally, I don't think Catholicism is all that sound as a pillar of faith. They're way too rigid when it comes to their belief structure. Anyone who needs middle-men to get in touch with God will never be close to Him.

"What you don't understand you can make mean anything." - Misty Wilmot

Jun 01, 2004 09:50 # 22948

ginsterbusch *** agrees...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

91% | 2

Personally, I don't think Catholicism is all that sound as a pillar of faith. They're way too rigid when it comes to their belief structure. Anyone who needs middle-men to get in touch with God will never be close to Him

Think about things like the crussades, the total extermination of several alternative christian religions, total ignorance of other poeple, racistic and partially fascistic thoughts and behaving, monarchy inside democratic states (WHAT ELSE is the pope if not a king?), etc. etc.

Well, /me is going to stick with pure-bred atheism, while still saying that I AM surely NOT the one who does know all, the final solution and result, blah. .. I think you know what I mean (sadly there is no saying like this in English language, but only in German :-/).

cu, w0lf.

Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign for a diseased mind!

Jun 01, 2004 13:59 # 22956

Sanguis *** has all the information you need...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

?% | 1

Think about things like the crussades, the total extermination of several alternative christian religions, total ignorance of other poeple, racistic and partially fascistic thoughts and behaving, monarchy inside democratic states (WHAT ELSE is the pope if not a king?), etc. etc.

Racists are found among the ranks of nearly every religion, nation or organisation on the surface of this planet. But not even the Catholic Church itself is fasistic itself nor is the majority of their followers. Also, there are huge improvement in terms of acceptance of other religions, but especially when you are talking about those alternative Christian religions you have to recon, that intolerance often occurs from their side.

Finally, the pope is by no means a king or any other absolute ruler. In fact he is not even considered to be in charge of most national affairs of the Vatican City. This would be the duty of the state secretary, which is currently Angelo Cardinal Sodano.

"Ignorance is the night of the mind, but a night without moon and star." -Confucius

This post was edited by Sanguis on Jun 01, 2004.

Jun 02, 2004 18:14 # 22988

ginsterbusch *** wants to note...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

92% | 2

Fact is: the catholic church thinks about their kingdom first, and last about their community members. I say kingdom, because although you tried putting me of off my theory of a 'catholic empire', you ought to fail. If you try to think the thought of monarchy a bit further, you are going to find out the Catholic Religion is indeed very similar to monarchy, maybe even to a constitutional one, like it is in the UK. I of course know that the pope gets elected, sorted out or whatever you want to call this procedure. I also do not know in detail how the Vatican works, but what I do know does only harden this theory of mine.

How else would the catholic church have made it till now? 2000 years, thnik about it. Of course, many things have changed since the oh so dark middle-age (which actually wasnt that dark at all), etc. etc. But in itself, the catholic church is still an empire, a very physical one, not just a mental!

But I not want to prod this any further, Im currently very fed of both repeating all the stuff Ive said all the time over and over again, writing 60 page-essays about and people who arent able to do some simple associations with given data (note: not aimed against you!). So this is my first time since about a year or so where I added some commentary about religious or politic stuff. And I think I gonna immediatly stop doing this, once again.

cu, w0lf.

Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign for a diseased mind!

Jun 04, 2004 19:00 # 23046

Aynjell *** throws in his two cents...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

93% | 2

I do not beleive it as you do.
I feel that a very healthy compromise is available.
If one takes a deep enough look into catholocisms history they would find its pagan roots.
Every last one of the saints is a christianized version of a pagan deity.
And it is argued that the mother of christ and jesus is a purified perfected version of the other religions that enjoy the concept of the mother/son duality.
It is said that the catholic religion was a cover up to get pagans into a church. They used things that they were familiar with in order to convert them.
It is not that far of a pass.
Anyway If anyone is able to argue the difference betwwen spellcasting and praying with a crucifix please do so.
Spellcasting is a prayer. Simple as that.
The semantic and audible components are empowering additions to the prayer. In no way do they differ.
Just as the little old lady would say her almost repetitively and damn near ceremonial hail mary's a witch would move his/her athame or light a candle.
In no way do these examples differ.
However the calling of spirits is similar to praying to saints only with the ceremonial aspct tha often accompanies the craft.
All of it carries a comfortable niche that christ fits into.
Just as much as christ fits into catholocism. I have always veiwed Catholocism as a christianized wicca.
Anyway none of the things said were meant to hurt or disclaim the catholic faith but to express my veiw in the vain effort to help another person. On the same token I will not apologize for my expressed veiws but I do hope that all that was said helps.

I should be ashamed of myself.

Jun 02, 2004 13:38 # 22982

GooOshe * replies...

What I would have done...

92% | 3

I belive in witchcraft, and am groving up in a chritian home.
I haven't ever told my parents or anny in my family that I do belive in this etc..

Sense am so young and live in a litlle town that does allmost not have one book on the subject, I look most after innformation on the net.

And some day ago I read a side from a christian wicca, she had have trobels with finding out what she should belive in, but she belived that god was her god and goddess and that she could belive in both.. A christian wicca that belived in god and in wicca.

You sad you problem was that you family wouldnt accept you if you where a wicca and that you had to accept jesus..
When I wa younger and did belive in god i never realy belived in jesus, you don't have to belive in jesus to be christian (after my apinion) cause if you belive in god I thought god whould accept me for who I am and that I just couldnt belive in jesus. I never belived in the bibel, but I never said it cause I was afraid for my parents.

I think you can belive in both, cause that god desides everithing is bullshit. (sorry, if am roud).
god is nice and when he created humens he gave them a mind of there own, a mind that thinks, feels, belives and have pshical powers that you have to exiersis to get to work.

You can belvie in both cause there is never a clear answer to a relgion, nobody can say what you shall think, belive and feel. (nobody should tell you what to do neither).

If my familly had told me exact what to belive and that I had to be a christian, I couldn't have done it cause my belive liges in witchcraft and I cant choose what to belive. Its like thinking you can those who you wanne love. Never do that mistake..

Sit down and think over it and what you belive, then write your thoughts in you diary, on a letter paper or something like that.
Then write down things from both relgion that You cant live without, (like god from chrsian and your phsicall powers from wicca etc..) form your own relgion. Deside what to belive or not to belive.

Jesus came to earth cause god hade created humans with their own mind, the humans wnet bad so god had tosend his own son to earth so not every human would go to hell. ( I don't belive in christani, but I thought about it that sounded more like it, after my apinnion).

You should sit dow and talk to your parents and tell them that they can't tell you what you should belive (unnless you doesn't live in a free country of cours (?)). You should talk to one annother and say that nobodys living the room untill you founded a agreement (lock the door), tell them exact what you belive and thinks and ask how they would felt if theire parents told them they couldn't belive in christani, would they have exepted it? Tell them how you feel about this.

I don't know how you are or how your parents are but this is some of the things i would have done in your situation (exept that I wouldn't thought twise about not give a shit about them, but thats who I am). And when you get children let them chose whatever they feel like to belive, so they wont go throug the same thing.

mvh. Anette:)

Jun 04, 2004 20:53 # 23051

Noblelement * replies...

Re:

35% | 3

Most people who want to be taken seriously can spell one syllable words like "rude" and "since." Take an english class, then maybe I won't cringe when I read your post. (just some advice, you know...)

Squee. Squee, I say!

Jun 04, 2004 22:05 # 23052

ginsterbusch *** replies...

Re:

73% | 3

Might it come to your noble mind, that there are also folks having dyslexia aka legasthenics?

Anyway, there's a simple solution to this: just write your text inside a word processor, then let the damn thesaurus/grammar and spelling correction (whatever it is called in English) run over it - now you simply insert your post into this nice entry form, and live happily on till someone drops his excrements onto you out of the plane he's flying with or something else absurdly cruel you want to think of ;)

cu, w0lf.

Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign for a diseased mind!

Jun 05, 2004 00:57 # 23057

Salvial_Ten *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

94% | 2

Perhaps your problem isn't that you aren't happy with Christianity as a whole, but with the branch of it you've been involved with all your life. I was raised Baptist, and one of my closest friends was raised Catholic. One day we sat down and idly discussed the differences in our churches. One of which being the willingness to except that sticking to rigorous religious rituals isn't all that nessicary.

Many friends of mine that are Christian handle life as they feel God would have them handle it, not as it says word for word in the Bible. I've taken some of what you've commented as meaning with your church it's the "Bible's way or the highway" so to speak.

Maybe it'd be best for you to look into other branches of the Christian faith?

--Jami

You fail it.

Jun 05, 2004 01:39 # 23060

Noblelement * replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

94% | 2

I'm finding that people are starting to argue about Catholicism. As much as I would like to blame my problem on the rigid rituals of catholics, I seriously doubt if it is the root of the problem.

I would hate to bring the past of the catholic church into this: Just as I am not proud of what America has done in the past, I am not proud of what Catholics have done in the past. This doesn't mean that I can't stand being american or catholic.. my problem is in the here and now.

The fact of the matter is this: I love being christian and I love having jesus in my life, but I am constantly finding myself not satisfied with christianity alone...I miss wiccanism and the entire belief system that I had worked out... Again, for me, it wasn't about the magic(k) or the rebellion, it was about doing what I wanted and feeling the Goddess around me and in me in a way that I had never felt before in Christianity.

If I were to compromise, as some of you suggested, I would have the whole guilt trip about not being totally honest with God thing going. I have already tried letting go of Christianity and living full out wiccan, but I found that it did not work out for me and the quote "Call of Jesus" kept on pursuing me until I went mad.

Thank you everyone for keeping this topic up and running ^_^ Please, keep replying!

Squee. Squee, I say!

Jun 05, 2004 07:17 # 23063

baexcell *** replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

94% | 2

I have never been Catholic, though i have been Xtian (no offense meant to any who follow the faith) and am currently following a path very similar to Wicca. I have felt the same feelings you are describing here.

Anywho, on to my advice for ya. You feel a need for Jesus Of Nazareth (or Jesus Christ, if you prefer), but also you feel a strong pull to the goddess and all she embodies. The best idea I can give you is the following.

Instead of compromising one for the other, look at the basis behind Chrisitanity and you will find the goddess is already with you. A perfect example is Mary, the mother of Jesus. According to many pagan references, the God/consort of the goddess is also her son. This fits perfectly with the story of Jesus. The goddess, Mary, comes to earth personified to give birth to a virgin son, Jesus. While Jesus is on earth, he is proclaimed to be the son of god and savior to the world. Following his death and resurrection, he ascends to heaven/summerland to take his place with his parent. This fits the idea that i have heard somewhere (unless i made it up, not sure) that the Goddess decides the laws of nature and the God/Consort enforces them. this fits with the idea of Jehovah/Jesus (trinity making them the same person) being around to punish the unrighteous, reward the righteous, and give salvation to the repentant.

I hope this has been some help. if not, then I apologize for wasting your time whilst you read it.

Jun 05, 2004 16:58 # 23083

Aynjell *** has all the information you need...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

?% | 1

The last time I checked wicca is a very wholesome religion.
If it is so hard for you to switch than in a spiritual whatever maybe you probably should not be involved in thecraft as I said there is no compromise only change.
Cathlocism is rigid yes and wicca also has it's rules but it inspires a freedom and enlightening responsibility that is so great. In writing this I had in mind the reed.
An' it harm none do what thou wilt
last time I saw the scriptures It seemed that christ was quite a liberal. Honestly there a great teachings in every religion.
Just remember if you are at peace with it than fine. If it inspires turmoil than it probably is not a very good idea. Also I must also tell you that just because it feels right does not mean it is. Sex feels plenty right but bringing in children to the world that are not easily provided for should be illegal. But that is another subject that I will most likely elaborate on later.

I should be ashamed of myself.

Jul 02, 2004 09:14 # 23920

r_pendragon *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

94% | 2

Well, as a lapsed Lutheran, I can't give you any specific advice on the Catholic aspect of your problem, but I definitely think that you can integrate your two faith systems and still remain a viable Christian (whether your parents think you're a Christian is, in the end, moot. It's what you think/believe/feel that matters).

Personally, my belief system is tied up somewhere in the middle of Christianity and... nothing. The story of Christianity appeals to me, as does the emotional approach of the New Testament; the idea of such a great, overpowering love is really a moving one.

However, I dislike the prevailing Christian attitude that exists, at least in the U.S. I think a lot of Christians have lost sight of their faith and have become moralizing, pompous fools who quite literally see the mote in someone else's eye before the beam in their own.

Unfortunately, I can't find a viable alternative to Christianity-- in spite of its innumerable flaws, it still works best for me. So I make my own belief choices. I believe in the Christian faith without really feeling like I'm a member of the Christian religion anymore. I don't think this makes me a bad Christian or an exemplary one. But I do think it gives me some mental relief, which it sounds like you're desperately seeking. Don't let the exclusivity of the Christian church fool you; church dogma and what you feel within yourself are two separate things. You can practice Wicca and still love Christ.

Bottom line: Christianity and other faiths shouldn't be mutually exclusive. (Wasn't Jesus a Jew?)

Best wishes with your faith journey.

My stepdad isn't mean, he's just adjusting. -Death to Smoochy

Jun 07, 2004 18:05 # 23127

fisher_king * replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

94% | 2

I think that you do not face a choice between wicca and christianity but a choice between being a christian wiccan and a catholic.

If you are a wican then you can choose to accept Jesus of Nazareth as part of your religion (or a manifestation of your god/horned god) and even the Virgin Mary as your goddess. Wiccan is flexible and will allow you to do this.

Catholicism was once this flexible but has long since crystallised into its present form. The only reason the Virgin Mary plays such an important role in Catholicism compared with christianity is because Catholicism was replacing the older pagan order and had to provide a goddess figure to keep female converts happy.

If you choose to be catholic then you cannot be wiccan, and in some people's opinions you may not even be able to be a real christian.

If you parents reject you for disagreeing with them on theology then I can't really see them as being good parents or particularly spiritual, how much do they reject you?

- Fischer-King

We were gods once and will be again.

Jun 13, 2004 05:14 # 23252

Jazz____yes_thats_my_name * replies...

Yea!

?% | 1

Oyea! Here we go! We got a live one! I know exactly what you mean and o boy, your screwd. Sorry to be frank but, man, your fcuked. Look at it this way, you become wholy cristian( you feel emptie) or your wiccan(parents are stupid and irrational). But if you really want to put a wedge in their rationality, ask them this. "What if Wiccan is the true religion? I mean, we have been blindly following a god who spends millions on churches, covents little boys being raped, and won't help the homeless unless they convert." Sounds like a lovly religion when put that way.

Hope it helps,
Jazz

Only the free wish to find their destiny, those who are jailed have found it.

Jun 13, 2004 05:21 # 23253

Noblelement * replies...

Re: Yea!

Lol, Jazz - I'm glad there's someone out there that feels the same way I do.

I feel like I should be christian and that it's not satisfying me becaue I'm not doing it right or something.. or the whole "not trusting god with all of your heart" thing if you know what i mean.. It just sort of stinks cuz I have all this christianic residue whenever I try to immerse myself in goddess worship or whatever you care to call it.

It's like that one chick said - I feel a strong call to follow jesus, but I also feel a strong pull towards the goddess too. Maybe I'll just wait out the 2 years and get confirmed, then go to college and do whatever the (insert afterlife here) I want. Not exactly the most immediately satisfying road to take, but most definately the least chaotic.

Squee. Squee, I say!

Jun 13, 2004 05:23 # 23254

Jazz____yes_thats_my_name * replies...

Wheres the fun?

Whats the fun in not creating total choas?

Only the free wish to find their destiny, those who are jailed have found it.

Jun 13, 2004 05:26 # 23255

Noblelement * replies...

Re: Wheres the fun?

Total chaos? Definate yes.

Emotional breakdowns for just about every person in my family? No. No probably not.

I'm supposed to be the sensible middle daughter - their relief after the party animal that my older sister was. They already had their fun four years of chaos. heheh - i work under the surface and slowly cause them to deteriorate them from the inside out. It's how my mind works

Squee. Squee, I say!

Jul 27, 2004 05:54 # 24825

betty *** replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

?% | 1

Why do you feel like you should be one or the other? There are many good things about many different religions - most of them promote morality and a sense of good and bad, they help you become one with yourself and a higher being. Try reading "Life of Pi" and see how one teenage boy learned to coexsist with his conflicting beliefs, it may give you an insight on why you feel the way you do. My advice is to do what makes you feel complete, do what you think is right. Your family may not approve of your religious beliefs, but this is your life and you should live it as you choose. Be a free thinker, keep asking yourself and others "Why?". Maybe you were meant to provide answers in this life for questions that were unanswered in your last life. Just remember that man made religion to suit his needs............

I am just me, searching for simplicity.........and a good hair stylist

Feb 09, 2006 18:26 # 41758

Lady_Aradia * replies...

Re: Wicca or Christian?

Wicca...I am wiccan myself...and I only try to help people. That's what Wicca's about...Wiccans are people closely attuned to nature and healing energies...and I work hard to help others, I having NOTHING against christians or Jesus related topics, even though I do have a strong belief that someone DID die for us...not only am I wiccan...but im also Indian, so i believe indian ways too...but i go for wiccan....wiccan is NOT a religion, but a simple spiritual thing!


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