Reading Love and Lifesense

Allright. Orchid has got one of her totally sick moments and doesn't learn (of course she really should!)
But first I have to know.

Situation: Wednesday, 9 o'clock. Man doesn't pick up the phone though normally they call each other everyday same time. Female note: Wednesday I normally use to visit him.

Man (simple): Door rings. He opens. Other man: "Ey guy, whassup? Whattabatta nice beer and some darts in the rockbar?" Man (not thinking in timeless dephts): "Yeah, sure, why not, I'll get my coat."
Later: girlfriend calls. Man: "Ayeh, chick, not here" (puts handy off). Thinks he'll call back when back at home. This, the lost round and the bug on the left shoe are the only things that are really concerning him now.

Woman (difficult, chaotic, confused, bewilderd and not to forget: using not one logical part of her brain):
Calls man. Man cuts off.
Somewhere in the womans mind, all fuses blow now.
She calls again, again and again.
She calls her "best friend in problems with men"
She calls her best friend
(This three things are slightly exagerated)
She cries (maybe)

Why?
Several sinister thoughts have raced through her mind between the minute when he didn't pick up the phone and the minute he rang back (short time though).
Which thoughts could that be?
Following:

Wednesday has always been OUR day
We always call around 9.
I've been struggling with my feelings since the time I "usually meet him"
He could at least have send an SMS (Hi Schatz, I'm there, can't phone, later, bla).
--> Here the woman is absolutely sure about the facts she now reveals:
His Alibi would have been: It's not nice to send SMS's while I'm with my mate.
Her final speech: Isn't it true, dear jury, that the accused has got a buddy with an IQ below 50? And isn't it true so that these people don't know about things like rules and Knigge? I can show you the psychologists analysis if you want. So, the accused could have written a message while he was sitting on the side of his dumb buddy (that's not fine) in the car (oh oh: just supposition! Maybe he drived). An SMS takes an average time of 1 minute to be written AND send. The ride to the pub, ladies and gentleman, takes 10! So, where did we stop. Ah, yes. And the woman, the woman had always sent an SMS even if it could get 1 second past 9 where she isn't reachable. Because the female homo sapiens couldn't bear the thought of having missed one fine call of her dearest. She would always send an SMS (as long as a novel) with an overwhelming excuse why she can't pick up the phone, where she is (and why), what she's doing there (with whom) and when exactly she'll hurry to call back. At the end of the SMS she listens the words, male homo sapiens use like fennel: "I love you". (Of course she uses them like sugar)

Other, rather unimportant thoughts of her: Aha, he's very fast in finding a replacement for our wednesday evenings...

I once read in a book that men love different. I see it. But HOW do THEY love? I mean, men, yes you, every single one of you. Do you live after time tables??
My friend has much bigger problems with her man (must be a very very bad copy of a man). She even thinks he just needs her when he's not fine (and he's always fine as far as I know). THIS man is able to leave her and the crowd on saturday night, half an hour before they're together for three months (after his calculation. After hers it would be five if he hadn't spept with two women while she was in Ireland) to go home and watch TV till 3(!) o'clock in the morning. Heck... Not to mention that he has still ominous calls with his ex (she calls almost everyday!) and, totally unforgivable: He can watch TV with her and adore every whore on the screen while he never tells his girlfriend how beautiful she is.
Additional mistakes: He doesn't make spontaneous presents as she does (invitation to the fine restaurant, little things that remind him of her, flowers --> Another story: He TELLS her that he gave a rose each to the women on his job! And he gave NOTHING to her. Why does the stupid tell her this at all? Doesn't he remark he is hurting he? Another story: She's almost crying while walking behind her in the supermarket so that the shop assistant drops a word. He doesn't get it...). He seems saving THE words till marriage.

Compared to THIS I'm still the luckiest girl on eart though I don't get why men are as they are. And I don't get why we women are as we are. Books and explanations won't help. The problem will never go. We can just get used to it. And to my surprise I think I did. I can remember me crying facing the "call problem". Today I didn't. Yesterday I didn't. I hope I won't lose this strenght again. But if university starts to suck again, I can't promise tears stay where they are...

Yep... Life is hard. Living with a man is even harder. But better, too. No tear cried for you is a tear to much, null. I could cry thousands of them, they're never wasted. I know what you mean to me. Cruelty is a matter of opinion. If it comes too hard I call back the sweetest memories to my heart. And I know they lay just ahead of me. I just have to wait and as soon as I'll see you again, everything will be allright. And better.
I just miss you and that's what's making me so vulnerable.

Just don't listen to me. I have to handle with it. And I will. Or at least I hope so... :-)

*kissgoodnight*
(listening to Aerosmith, preparing for learn session ;-)

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Look, I understand part of what you're writing.

But OTOH I must admit your posting makes me a bit... angry? annoyed?
I don't know exactly.

It's not about what you're thinking/feeling/whatever. I understand and accept that part as completely as a man can.
It's merely because it's always the same, may I say "drama": you call, I don't answer instantly, you tell everybody how I'm missing our dates (altho we've never settled one) and rather go out with some dumb friend of mine than talking to you, you call me again and again until I think it must be something important and stop whatever I'm doing to answer the phone. Afterwards I feel stalked because I can't even go out with somebody without you interrupting us. Afterwards you apologize, insist that's it's all your fault and promise me that it's okay...
until the next time I don't answer the phone within 5 seconds.

The point is, I didn't just turn off the phone and forgot about it. I'd have called back later. I always call back when you try to reach me in the evening. The reason for not accepting your call was - as already explained - a) it's loud inside a rock bar and b) fscking cold outside, so no good place for a chat. And we did not fix a time, as you've told your friends.

Look, I like to talk to you. I like you being around and stuff. Really.

But why the heck is it such a hell of a problem for you when I want to go out with my buddies, even if it means that I can't run away and leave them alone the very instant you want to talk to me? Don't you understand that I have social contacts / relatives other than you, and that these need time as well? I spend more time with you than with anybody else, but I can't possibly spend all my time with you or waiting for you! I've got other friends, too (even ones with an IQ higher than 50, imagine), I want to spend time with them, and I feel that some of your actions completely disregard this fact. Which in turn I see as a serious restriction of my independence.

So, what I'm trying to say:
* I spend about 80% of the weekend with you. You always have priority, i.e. when somebody else wants to hang out with me, I usually tell them "sorry, I've plans with my fiancee." And they respect that.
* I call you (or get called by you) virtually every evening you're at Zurich. I always take the time to talk to you, no matter how stressed or tired I am, or how much work there is to do.
* I always try to be there for you when you've got a problem. I borrow my neighbour's car (the one with the IQ of 50) to drive you to Zürich so you don't have to go by train. I help you with your computer stuff, or even with your term paper if I can. I buy you stuff you like but can't (or don't want to) afford.
* I understand that you're not so happy in Zürich, and that you might want to talk to me even when I'm out with friends. But I can't always respect your wishes. I don't want to let my friends alone every time you feel like talking to me. You can't expect me to drop everything and run whenever you call! It's not nice to my friends, it's not sane, it's not even possible for me!

So please, please, tell me (and don't just apologize and repeat the whole story next Wednesday) - why can't you just live without me for, say, half an hour?
I mean, you're living together with 7 people, some of your classmates live near you, and Zürich's possibilities to go out are virtually boundless... why not talk to somebody else (or go out) instead of insulting my friends while waiting for me? They seem to be nice people!

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

This post was edited by null on Apr 03, 2002.

I don't expect you to do the things you mention. In the contrary: I'm very lucky knowing you're going out with your friend, who's really very kind. OK: I, lucky, you go out wit him

I just wanted to know why I, yes it's about ME here, why I freak out when you're not at home at 9 o'clock. I don't know.
I'm just sick and you know this. I'm very, very depressive and I got many problems to have contacts to people. I have fucking problems to accept my situation here and I have even more problems with knowing all this. I'm kinda addicted to you 'cause you're sometimes like a drug I need.
Look, didn't we have a nice time during holidays? I mean I COULD LIVE WITHOUT CALLS! I WAS HAPPY! I DID WETHER TREMBLE NOR CRY, I JUST LIVED A HAPPY LIVE.
Now I'm back in this fucking city and my world collides again. It's too much. It costs me too much. And yes it's true: Two days without you is hell. You're the most important thing in my life and it's okay not to see you if I'm in my beloved world with Isabel, parents, job, MY room. But here is a siege. I can't live here happily. I tried, I just can't! Today I saw these new fucking kanji and I knew: I won't make it. I couoldn't learn them at home so why here. I need some place where I feel loved, where I have MY people.
I can't explain it but without this warm situation I'm just not me.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

If me butting in is a problem for either of you, null you know where the DELETE button is hidden.

Orchid,

Whatever you read in a book, or are told by some all-seeing and all-knowing friends about "what all men are like" is complete and utter nonsense.

Do you really believe there are the living, thinking girls on the one side, and the automated, behaviourist robots who will always react in a given manner depending on what you feed them?

Men aren't like this. Men don't love in another way. And top of all, men aren't like "uhm, I think I'll be an asshole today".

Why are you so unsure about your fiancé's feelings for you? Maybe you should talk something out? And is it really so bad when he goes out for a night with a buddy or two?

There are things someone must accept that the other wants to do them on their own. You probably have some things like that yourself. That's not cheating, just a healthier way to lead a relationship.

My advice for everyone is to always keep something that you can do without your other half. If you plan to live together for many years (and I think you both do), having something for your own will keep your relationship fresh and both of you interested in the other.

This doesn't mean you have no right to be informed about each other's life anymore. But let the motivation be interest, not control.

I understand the phone is your almost only link to null during the week. Nonetheless don't try to use his cellphone as a dog leash. Okay, he could have sent that SMS during the evening. If such little effort could really have prevented this, talk with him about that and you'll both be happier.

- Jaz

PS: As for your friend: About a third of the population on consists of assholes who are busy spoiling life for the other 66 percent. The dickheads, the bitches. Assholes can be found in any gender. If your friend's boyfriend is such a moron as you described, I don't know why they are still together. She can't possibly need an ass like that.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

You're right Jaz. But you have to admit women somewhat seem to love more intense/stronger whatever. And it's not just me. Maybe for women love means to dedicate her life to the man. That's why women always break down when a long longterm relationship breaks. The man gets in the center of her life. This must not include women like Madonna but women like me. I didn't except my friend to feel the same because I always thought of her of a very strong woman. But maybe she's just good in hiding... She gave her boyfriend many chances and I know their story from the beginning. I think her boyfriend is just too young for love. He was together with someone else for three years (as was null) but all they did was, so I was told, f**ing and fighting. The girl must have been someone like me or even worse and she still calls him daily... Of course my friend isn't amused 'bout that.

I don't know if it's just me but I know men love their girlfriends but they maybe have a better way to seperate love and life. I don't know. I'm somewhat shizo cause I sometimes ask twice if null doesn't want to pick up the phone. Maybe because I feel less guilty if he does. I also want him to go out with his friend. But another part of my soul feels hurt and I don't know if it's envy, jealousy or just fear...
This part of my soul has overhand (?) when I'm here and I slightly remark it wants to say something when I'm there.
I hope you understand.

Maybe in short this just means when I'm feeling happy and comfortable etc. null can do what he wants, I do what I want, I'm still thinking of him but I'm happy and pleased with myself having such a fine fiance.
When I'm really down and depressive, don't wanna see anybody, can't learn, just want to die, THEN I react a bit too sensitive when null isn't (happily) on the other side of the phone.

Now can you help me?

Well I didn't know I'd hate my situation I have chosen when I didn't know null...

I just have to get stronger then I am. I can't always hate what I'm doing. Grammar and so... I just can't ignore that this is my JOB and I HAVE to so it alone.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Hey, I would never ever delete a post of you! After all this place is about sharing opinions and stuff, which is exactly what you're doing.
Plus you still have the power to bust my account. ;-)

I absolutely agree with you on that relationship and "what all men are like" stuff. People are different in many ways because they grow up in different environments and with different experiences, not just because of the extra 30cm (12") they may or may not have.

Yet I think there are some differences. As a matter of fact, Orchid & me happen to discuss them quite often. One of our conclusions is that women are much more subtle, while men are... well, simple. Men and women say the same things in a different way. We tend to express our (same) feelings differently. We may want the same thing(s) but in a different way or for different reasons.

Differences between man and woman that spontaneously come to my mind:

Difference #1 - using subtle hints

Situation: it's been a long day and we both could use a massage.

My algorithm:

say("Mmh, now a massage would be really nice!") ;
enjoy_massage() ;

Orchid's algorithm:

for each $part in human.body {
  say("look how tensed up my $part is!") ;
  if (peer_has_figured_out(my_real_intention)) {
    act_surprised() ;
    say("Why yes, a massage would be very nice!") ;
    enjoy_massage() ;
    break ;
  }
}
if (still_not_massaged()) {
  say("Would you like a massage?") ;
  massage_peer() ;
  wait_for_return_offer() ;
  if (return_offer()) {
    enjoy_massage() ;
  } else {
    say("Would you mind massaging me, too?") ;
    enjoy_massage() ;
  }
}

'kay, this might be a little bit exaggerated, but you get the point. :-)

Difference #2 - assuming the existence of subtle hints

From "Rules from men for women" (not meant too seriously):

"When we ask you to hand us the salt, we mean exactly that. It's not a reproach because the salt isn't there, it's out of our reach or the food is awful. We just want to put salt on something."

Difference #3 - dealing with problems

Observation: When there's a problem, men want to solve it. Women want to be comforted in the first place.

Example: On an evening home (one party is cooking). The steaks are totally burnt, there's a full-blown snail farm hidden inside the salad and the noodles' dough/salt ratio is about 50/50.

Man wants: a quick replacement for the spoiled dinner.
Women wants: somebody to comfort her. Dinner is secondary.

Difference #4 - expiry of statements

Man: Statements such as "I love you" are valid until revocation and thus needn't be repeated too often.
Woman: Statements such as "I love you" have an average TTL of 1-2 days, after which they have to be renewed in order to stay valid.

Note that these are my first- or second-hand experiences. Altho I believe them to be quite common, it's possible that they don't apply to you or that I'm completely wrong. I'd however like to hear about your experiences. :-)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

I think there is a difference also, but in some ways males and females love alike.
In my experience, I drove my fiancee and husband crazy.
My first thought on awakening was of him, I was in love with love, he became everything to me.
No other person ever in my life had my total respect, admiration, joy bloomed when he just met my eyes and I ceased to think rationally.

I wanted to somehow.......live my life.....but crawl inside him...see with his eyes, hear what he heard, be there for the nicks and bruises daily life could give his esteem, a rude person, a dissappointment, anything he felt funny, oddities, things he admired........to give me an idea of what he liked around him.....so somehow I could provide that.

If he had been a puddle of silly putty with two eyes and a loud awful laugh like a donkey, it wouldn't have mattered, I never ever trusted other women around him, surely they wanted this awesome, gentle, brilliant, patient, capable, at ease with anyone, person.

I think, because I felt he could see through me like glass, and knew every fault I had, I could not quite believe in this miracle, that this man actually chose me to love.

I drove him crazy trying to make sure he knew every minute of my experiences away from him, if I wondered about anything, forget thinking for myself or looking it up and making it my own.....I wanted his opinion and thoughts. Lol, some things I privately disagreed with, but kept my thoughts to myself.

He was my strength, I could face or fight anything knowing he was in my life.

When the time came that even I knew I was driving him crazy being so possessive and needy, I made (in my mind) a living miniature of him (imaginary) and I put him in my blouse pocket.......from that time on......I became a truly independent unshy, confident person.....This sounds crazy as hell........but it worked......and let me tell you.......that miniature of him heard and saw every minute of my time away from him......gave advice when shook.......was always there when down in the dumps.........lol..........loved to go window shopping.......didn't mind looooooooooongggggg shopping ........did however, still........at times.....tell me how to drive.

One of the differences, also I think, is if I was late or out of touch longer than planned he always assumed I was tied up in some way and would arrive safely later. Until the time I was in a tornado while he was at work.....then he made a complete idiot of himself......slamming the car to a stop.......screaming at me in front of all the neighbors and emergency people......"Why didn't you call to tell me you were ok" etc etc and then hugging me so hard and God he was so mad at me he couldn't bear to be around me.....so he helped the neighbors till could cool down. I seriously never could see his side on that.......I knew I was quite ok.
Not so, if he was late........my imagination went through every dangerous scenario I could dream up, from flat tires to painted hussies......

For me, he was the most important person in my life, on his shoulders he carried our family name for good or for ill, I never ceased to be curious about him.......always something......he was my wall of safety and my most vulnerable point at once.....the times he needed my strengths.......I was so grateful to have the opportunity to give back an iota of what he gave me. He was my favorite playmate, best friend, father, brother, beloved stranger, mystery and magic in my life

To this day, males are magical mysteries. So, really I am no help on figuring them out. Tis either their hardware or software that is different from ours....or both.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

This post was edited by gentledeepwaters on Apr 04, 2002.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.
Nothing to add. I kinda feel exactly the same things, maybe some things are different but in general... ;-)

I just want to thank null for having the patience to live with me :-)

I don't understand why I always make problems that are noones.
Hope I'll make it better some day :-)

He's just an angel, don't you think so, too? :-)

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Yes I do.....you are one lucky woman.....and he is one wise man. Now I am going to give all my wisdom a rest......
I am flat tired of seeing me in nearly every forum......grins........time to do some projects in real life for a bit.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

...

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.