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Sep 27, 2004 06:36 # 27041

rosyxxx *** feels excited about...

What tHe #$*! Do wE (k)now!?

95% | 2

I just went to see the most awesome movie...What tHe #$*! Do wE (k)now!? It made me want to run home and take out my copy of "The Elegant Universe", "The Tao of Physics", and "The Universe in a Nutshell"... as well anything by Evelyn Underhill. This movie, narrated by fourteen top scientists and mystics from across the United States, puts forth the theory that science and spirituality are on the same track.

Not everyone may like or 'get' this film, but it really makes you think. Anyone who has ever tried to understand Quantum Physics has come across the conundrum that when you look at an atom, it isn't really what you think you see. There is no consistently solid nucleus around which nebulous electrons are circling. The nucleus subscribes itself to the particle-wave theory. When you look at it, it is a particle, when you look away, or out of the corner of your eye, it is a wave. It changes as the result of you being the observer.

This reminded me of two things: First, I read about numerous studies done in laboratory conditions set up to observe praying mantises in the act of copulation. When observed under obvious laboratory conditions, with bright lights and people staring at them, the female would conclude the session by eating the male. When they finally changed the set-up to appear as if no one was looking, the female curled up with the male. (Would you want to snuggle if you were being watched? A la Billy Pilgrim in "Slaughterhouse Five"?)

So it appears in the macrocosm as well that observation can effect the outcome. On that note, the second thing I remembered was that a shaman (whose name I can't remember) said once that he didn't believe in foretelling the future, because the very act of looking for the future, created a less fluid potentiality. In effect, trying to see into the future, changed the future, when it could have had many more possibilities.

In the film, several of the physicists said that Quantum Physics was the science of probabilities. Nothing really exists, except as we see it on the mind-screen. To go further, because of this, we can truly effect our universe in more ways than we could possibly imagine.

What stuck with me the most, was a scene from the movie, where the actress Marlee Matlin stood watching a demonstration on the subway. A woman had some lighted displays showing molecules of water that had been experimented upon. One of the molecules had simply been drawn from some body of water in Japan as a control. The second had been blessed by a priest. The water molecule that had been blessed transformed itself into a sparkling crystalline snowflake-shape.

They then took several samples of water and placed them in bottles with different words printed upon each. One said, "Thank You", and another said "Chi of Love". These were also beautiful crystalline shapes. There was another bottle, however, which had written upon it: "I hate you, I want to kill you." The water molecules in this bottle were disorganized, chaotic, and looked as if they were being destroyed. After looking at this, the man next to Marlee Matlin looked at her and said,"If our minds can effect water this way, imagine how they can effect us," or something like that.

They also mentioned that thinking positively was not as easy as it sounded, because what most people do is to smear a mask of positivity over all the negatively conditioned thoughts that we have... which doesn't really do the job. It's much, much harder than that. We have neurons that fire in groups, and have fired in the same groups for years, creating neural networks that perpetuate themselves. To get into that negative feedback loop and short-circuit it, to reroute it, is difficult at best, but once it is done, great change can be effected. This is the beginning of what we call 'enlightenment'.

I have touched moments like that, where I have believed so strongly that I could effect something that I have to a great extent. And then the doubt comes in. Sometimes it is other people's doubt.

I had an experience once in meditation that was astounding. I told my teacher about it, and he counciled me not to tell everyone about it. He said that some people wouldn't understand and would think that I was crazy. I've realized since that part of what he was saying was that other people would project their doubts onto my experience, making it less likely that I would continue forward on the path. He was right. I told people and they expressed doubt, and I began to doubt what I had seen. I didn't trust my own experience of truth enough. And that truth sounds very much like the truth that people seek in religion, even though my truth is a composite of science and spirituality.

It's been a long time since I've seen that place... and yet the visual effects within this film reminded me of where I had been.

It's all real, I tell you. Go. See this movie. If it doesn't change your life, it will change something.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

Nov 06, 2004 14:43 # 28587

rosyxxx *** throws in her two cents...

Dr. Imoto's Ice Crystals

95% | 2

Just wanted to post some pictures of 'ice crystals' like the ones that Dr. Imoto photographed in the movie What tHe #$*! Do wE (k)now!?:

snowflakes.jpg

and...

011902-c083.jpg

and finally...

012902-a083.jpg

Just imagine that this is what happens to water molecules when they are distilled, frozen and blessed by either monks or by phrases written upon their containers such as 'Chi of Love' and 'Thank You', which convey their content/intent.

As they say in the movie, "If our thoughts can do that to water, imagine what they can do to us." Everytime you say something kind to someone it is like turning the water molecules in their body -and our bodies are comprized of mainly water- into these tiny blessings that will float throughout a person's bloodstream like fairy dust. What a great visualization to befriend and calm down overactive cancer cells. As well as other 'forms' of anger and misery.

These photos are part of The Rasmussen & Libbrecht Collection that is housed within this site: www.snowcrystals.com

On that site they have links to 'snowflake watching', 'snowflake hotspots' ;P, movies of snowflakes in the process of becoming snowflakes, and an explanation of 'snowflake physics'!

The photographs were done using super-high-resolution photomicroscopy. With winter coming... I find myself feeling as if my entire being is glowing with happiness after looking at these photos... I guess the 'physics' of their form somehow escapes over the net to my physiology and transforms it.

What a neat thought!

By the way, when I was in High School, I was in a performance of The King and I, and I was dressed as a snowflake. My friends called me 'snufflink' for a long time, because of the way I pronounced the word.

I'll be imagining myself as a snowflake. Excuse me while I go land on some soft wool.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Nov 06, 2004.

Aug 12, 2005 03:19 # 37999

Duke * replies...

Re: What tHe #$*! Do wE (k)now!?

I am trying to track down more on Dr. Imoto. Your post, one on Falun Gong, and one on "what the bleep do we know" are all I could find on a Google search for Dr. Imoto and water. This raises the suspicion in my mind that something is not quite as it should be. Please someone help me dispel that suspicion.

Please answer at duke.vipperman@sympatico.ca

Duke

Aug 12, 2005 06:49 # 38006

rosyxxx *** replies...

Re: What tHe #$*! Do wE (k)now!?

There is no need for e-mail. This is simple. When I saw the movie, I did not see the spelling for Dr. Emoto's name. It is: Emoto...not Imoto. My mistake.

There are several books which he has published on the subject of water crystals. Most of them are pretty much of the same content. The perils of the book-publishing industry.

One of the more inexpensive one's is: The True Power of Water by Masaru Emoto

He also wrote the New York Times Bestseller: The Hidden Messages in Water.

His interests lie in humanities and sciences, and he is a graduate of Yokohama Municipal University as well as Open International University with a Doctorate of Alternative Medecine.

If you our anyone else is interested in finding out more about his technology for viewing the ice crystals, you may either go to your nearest bookstore, check out amazon.com for his books, or 'google' his name with the first letter as an 'E'. Happy Hunting!

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

Aug 12, 2005 14:23 # 38015

Duke * replies...

Re: What tHe #$*! Do wE (k)now!?

As a bit of a mystic myself and a believer in the power of prayer, I am curious about his theories. I did find his correct spelling and his site - thanks. The scientific aspect of his work should be easily reproducable. However "an Advanced Placement Psychology class at Durango High School in Durango, Colorado attempted to replicate Dr. Masaru Emoto’s water experiments"
http://66.201.42.16/viewitem.php3?id=910&catid=510&kbid=ionsikc

They conclude "We did not find sufficient evidence to refute or accept Emoto’s hypothesis that thought influences water crystal formation. We noticed one interesting similarity between two separate groups of water samples: Similar crystals formed on the same message, “I despise you,” in two types of water. But, for the most part, the crystal formations in each water sample resembled each other, regardless of the messages attached to them. We concluded that in order to make a significant finding, further research would have to be done. So, for now, we will have to live with our curiosity and continue to wonder if our thoughts have the power to influence water and ultimately ourselves."

Obviously our thoughts can influence ourselves so that part of their conclusion goes beyond their experimentation but their scientific study raises the question of reproducability. Are others finding similar results?

Duke

Aug 13, 2005 16:59 # 38041

rosyxxx *** throws in her two cents...

Re: What tHe #$*! Do wE (k)now!?

Short story, my friend. You are focusing on the negative aspects before the studies are definitive in scope, and I suspect before you have even read the book by Dr. Emoto, or watched the movie: What tHe #$*! Do wE (k)now.

Do yourself a favor. Just look at all of the information out there on it, including the books, and also read a little about 'string theory', Quantum mechanics and particle physics...and THEN make your own decision for yourself.

I put this specific information up here for information purposes only. I don't consider this a debate topic. If you want to debate it, debate it with someone other than me. Personally, debating it isn't a positive activity for me, and I want this topic to remain positive in my mind. If you don't want to believe it, that's your choice. Something told me with your original skepticism, that you would be asking me to confirm this for you. I can't. But I believe it, and I don't choose to disbelieve. If you want to disbelieve it, that's your choice. Because the choice to believe it is currently a personal one. But your choice also affects and effects the outcome more than you might know. More than anything, what you believe will be true for you.

So, leave me with my truth, and go in search of yours.

Until we meet again to discuss another topic. I've made my decision on this one, and it is based upon my own empirical evidence. But that's good enough for me. Make your own decision. It's your mind, not mine. In the past, science has made a habit of knocking the wind out of people's sails...but we are finding that what mystics have believed for centuries has a scientific basis. Then there is a point, where science can't prove it. That is where this is at right now. It is, as you say, not yet provable. And yet, I choose to stay in the rooting section, because like Yogi Bajhan says: 'to live positively is difficult yes, but to live negatively is miserable.' That is really what this is all about. It doesn't matter whether science can prove it. The point is: live in love and gratitude, or live in it's opposite, or in the shady gray areas. I'd personally prefer love and gratitude. Why, you should ask yourself, does that even need to be proven as effective. I don't need Dr. Emoto to tell me that the results of living that way are beneficial. It was just fun information. Do with it as you please...

Happy hunting.

Peace, love and gratitude.
Peace out. :-)

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Aug 13, 2005.

Aug 13, 2005 18:51 # 38046

Duke * replies...

Re: What tHe #$*! Do wE (k)now!?

Thank you for the attention you have given me, a total stranger. Life is wonderful, is it not, and, added to that, gifts of care and concern such as yours. Thank you sincerely.

I would not have raised the question of scientific method had not Dr. Emoto's work been framed in just those terms in both the movie, which I have studied carefully, and in numerous internet articles, which I have also read. He claims to have used proper scientific controls so I am curious why my search for more of the same is characterized as "skepticism". Would it have been more laudable if he had not actually done the study but simply asserted that he believed his thesis to be true?

It is true that I have not read his book. My quiery was intended to see if purchasing it would be worth the money. Since it does not matter whether it is verfiably true but whether or not one chooses to believe it, then I have my answer.

What I thought Dr. Emoto was asserting was not just subjective truth ("my truth", "your truth") but verfiable truth about the world we both share. I mistook the opportunity to join Netalive as a chance to search together for that common truth. Now it seems best to consider this conversation to have come to a healthy close and to go on separatelty to yet a new day.

Thank you for listening to this honest seeker,

Finally, with all my best,

Duke

Aug 16, 2005 06:20 # 38070

rosyxxx *** has a suggestion...

I Know Absolutely Nothing But What is in My Heart

?% | 1

What I thought Dr. Emoto was asserting was not subjective truth ("my truth", "your truth") but verifiable truth about the world we both share. I mistook the opportunity to join Netalive as a chance to search together for that common truth. Now it seems best to consider this conversation to have come to a healthy close and to go on seperately to yet a new day.

Thank you for listening to this honest seeker,

Finally, with all my best,

Duke

Your search for information that disproves Dr. Emoto's theory I characterized as "skepticism", because it is. Healthy skepticism is fine, but you should ask yourself: is that what that was for you? Only you can answer that.

Hm. Somehow... I think you misunderstood my admonition to read the material first, and my expression of "Love, gratitude, and Peace. Peace out." That was not a definitive 'goodybye'. Just a request for you to drop the subject if you weren't going to read the source material. I never said I wouldn't debate other topics with you, just not this one. You haven't even read the primary source material, which would seem kinda necessary in a debate...but, debating this with you, so that you can justify the purchase of the book seems...

I'm not sure if it is even worth pointing out here that I never said Dr. Emoto was asserting only subjective truth. I DID say that it appears there is not enough research yet, to substantiate his claims. That's not the same thing. And I, unlike you, don't need the proof to know that it works. I'm not going to go seeking out 'sources of doubt' if I don't need them, just so I can meet you toe to toe. It is so, so, so very easy to slip back into the negative man. I'm happy to converse, but I never intended this post to be a basis for trying to prove or disprove the theory. I'm not THAT scientific about things, and your desire to be so, is conflicting with my desire not to be. If I were to debate this with you, it would be against my will. And me going looking for 'sources of doubt' just to debate the issue with you slows me down in my progress. It does for me, exactly the OPPOSITE of what Dr. Emoto's work has done for me. I don't mind chatting, but trying to dissect this issue feels to me like trying to figure out how my girlfriend was cured of terminal cancer by visiting a shaman in Hawaii. I don't care, because I know that the mystery of it is part of the cure. I know that in my bones. I know it for ME. It would be almost like observing the praying mantis' in the experiment I described in the initial post. You don't see it the way I do. I am aware of that. But though I don't wish to debate the scientific provability of this theory with you, I am happy to converse with you.

And yet, I find this conversation very draining. Negative conditioning is hard to break my friend. I fight it every day... and you are giving me a run for my money for sure; as I periodically do with other people because I am only human. But this is something beautiful to me. It has been one of many sources of healing for me, and trying to debate it with you feels like trying to analyse a beautiful musical theme. Can you understand please? You were asking me to do something that would destroy the mystery and beauty of it for me. :/

How I feel about debating the scientific provability feels like exhuming my faith in alternative medecine. I feel I can very much identify with Kate Winslet's character in the movie: Holy Smoke. Just in that having someone suggest doubt to her is enough to crumble the beauty in her heart that she received when getting shaktipat from her guru. The bandage on my wounds man, is thin. The wounds are raw underneath. Lifting up the bandage right now does harm, which means that likely, I should never have posted the original post. I hoped it would be inspirational for people, but I see that I should have kept my thoughts on the subject to myself. But...*sighs*...what's done is done, so on that note...

I think it might be a good idea for me to dig up two pertinent paragraphs that I wrote in my original post:

They also mentioned that thinking positively was not as easy as it sounded, because what most people do is to smear a mask of positivity over all the negatively conditioned thoughts that we have... which doesn't really do the job. It's much, much harder than that. We have neurons that fire in groups, and have fired in the same groups for years, creating neural networks that perpetuate themselves. To get into that negative feedback loop and short-circuit it, to reroute it, is difficult at best, but once it is done, great change can be effected. This is the beginning of what we call 'enlightenment.'

I have touched moments like that, where I have believed so strongly that I could effect something that I have to a great extent. And then the doubt comes in. Sometimes it is other people's doubt.

I had an experience once in meditation that was astounding. I told my teacher about it, and he counciled me not to tell everyone about it. He said that some people wouldn't understand and would think that I was crazy. I've realized since that part of what he was saying was that other people would project their doubts onto my experience, making it less likely that I would continue forward on the path. He was right. I told people and they expressed doubt, and I began to doubt what I had seen. I didn't trust my own experience of truth enough. And that truth sounds very much like the truth that people seek in religion, even though my truth is a composite of science and spirituality.

It's been a long time since I've seen that place... <quoted from my original post>

And yet I have FOUND that place again. But it is so fragile, so new, that if I even entertain doubts right now, it reroutes the circuiting, if you will, back to where it was before. If I am being closed-minded about this right now, it is because I must be to continue on the path. At least for now. Please respect that. I almost wish that I had never posted this post, and just kept the quiet happiness to myself. That way, I would not look like a hypocrite to people when I don't live up to what Dr. Emoto's research was looking into, and I wouldn't feel pressured to debate something I neither want to debate nor can debate when the feeling is so fragile. Let the glue dry on the broken teacup man, before you ask me to go telling you where the cracks are...

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Aug 16, 2005.

Aug 16, 2005 14:49 # 38083

Duke * replies...

Re: I Know Absolutely Nothing But What is in My Heart

Ok. Can we agree the old conversation is dead?

I promise...no debate but I wonder if you'd let me suggest something positive.

First it may be too much to ask, though it is the truth, for for to accept that I never intended to debate nor sought to disprove Emoto's theory? Read my posts again. All I asked for was [links to] more confirming studies. Would that we had stuck to that request.

But am I really that skeptical? Hmmm...

I have taught and will continue to teach prayer. In the 1990's I called on several bodies of research as strong evidence. However now in 2005 a positive approach to truth would also compel me, to say, as you have done, that not all the evidence points in that direction.

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2003/10_october/15/does_prayer_work.shtml

However, I will still be prayer for sick friends...not against the evidence, but because praying whatever the results is the most positive, faithful thing to do.

You and I may not in the end agree that one can have a positive approach to life and prayer/meditation and simultaneously a positive approach scientific endeavor. But admitting where we are now is I think a positive approach.

So we can finish by saying that 1) we are agreed that Emoto's thesis and the prayer /meditation / health nexus is not proven yet.

2) We are agreed that if it was possible for the mind to affect positively the world around us, we should both know about it and do our part in it.

3) We are agreed that our attitudes have a definite affect on ourselves - and on the way we see the world. (I wonder what you thought when you saw that I had responded?)

4) We are agreed that we would like to see more to encourage us along the way.

5) We are agreed that we wish each other well with peace love and gratitude.

Can you respond positively to any of that? I pray Yes!

Aug 16, 2005 15:40 # 38084

Duke * replies...

Re: I Know Absolutely Nothing But What is in My Heart

The previous link I included may have been to the first MANTRA study. Here is a summary of the 2005 MANTRA II results.

Prayer's Power to Heal Strangers Is Examined
Cardiac Patients in New Study Fared No Better With Spiritual Intercession

By Rob Stein, Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 15, 2005; Page A08

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401695.html

MANTRA II concludes that "music, imagery and touch (MIT) therapy, which involved breathing techniques, soothing music, touch and other ways to relieve stress, such as calming mental images" did help relieve stress and therefore assisted in the healing process, as well as "high-dose" prayer that is asking more religious congregations to pray for the prayers of the initial group to work.

In oter words, MANTRA II suggests we get LOTS of people to pray but we will serve our friends best by going to see them, singing to them (if we can make good music) and giving them calming things to think about.

Notice: the contrast between Dr. Sloan's clear negaitivity "[Prayer] is preposterous" (he neeeds to read more on string theory) and Pastor Lawrence's hedged response: "God is not subject to scientific research." Emoto, correct me if I am mistaken, is not claiming the third party involvement of a diety but a more direct effect. In that case it is helpful to know that in the MANTRA II study, Buddhists fared no better than Southern Bapists in praying for strangers at a distance.

This is the sort of work that impresses me!


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