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Yesterday the belgium government accepted and finalized a new law that handles the right of euthanasia for belgium people. After Holland Belgium is only the second country that tries to handle this by a federal law. Its said to give people the right to decide about their own death, if they are incurable sick, or their closest relatives can decide it if the patient himself is not able to anymore. In addition mentally ill persons (whatever that means!) are given this right as well.

I must admit I did not look for more information about it but what I heard in the news, so please dont expect any detailed explaination to this belgium laws. But I think we still can talk about the ethics and what we think about it.

Maybe here in Germany we're are a bit more sensible to just the word euthanasia then the rest of the world due to the use of it in our history. But still I think its about time for all nations to come to terms on this topic. So I appreciate the belgium decision a great deal.

I feel every human being should be granted the right to decide about his own life AND death just by himself if he wants to. In these times where the medical techniques reached a point where its possible to keep an about dead body alive for ever if necessary, its absolutely needed to talk about it with an open mind and without false morals or uptight ethics. Also it takes away the burden from MDs or any medical personal involved. Imagine a doc who once swore this oath to save lifes for as long as he can, who now got a patient begging at him to help him die. After german law if he does he is a killer and will be locked up for 20+ years. This seems somehow rediculous to me.

Of course there have to be ways to control any use of these laws (e.g. what does 'metally ill' mean, or, who is the one who actually kills the person if he/she cant do it for him/herself, how to doublecheck its indeed his/her own will), but I absolutley dont understand the usual outcries from the conservative corner, who hurried to announce they're going to appeal before the european cort at once!

Comments?

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

This subject is very important to me...
I must think and collect....then I will respond.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Hellooooo?

Anybody out there?

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Yes, but I agree with you and have nothing else to add, so...
:-)

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

As you said the question is whether one should have the right to decide over their own life. Generally reason says "yes". Me, you, all the people on this board should have this right. But me and you aren't the group of people that this discussion applies too. It gets tougher when it comes to mentally or phsyically very ill persons. The question probably isn't yes or no, it's when such a wish should be granted. "Whenever it is stated" is no acceptable answer in my eyes.

It's somewhat weird that there is so much resistance from the Christian and conservative factions for the general idea of euthanasia, as I was taught in my roman-catholic lessons at school, that every human being has the freedom of choice, even if the choice is to abandon God completely.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

I feel each of us has the right to Euthanasia if we choose, if we are terminal, suffering, and no prospects for quality of life.

Some of the arguements against it:
l. Someone in a coma on costly life sustaining circumstances, the insurance companies or organ harvesters could force the issue.

2. Pre-natal or newborn born with a disease such as Tay-Sachs.

3. Anyone not able due to illness or mental capacity to understand the choices.

4. The religious aspect.

What I fail to understand....is why do we have to deal with those issues right now??

I feel that anyone who is terminal and suffering beyond any quality of life should have the choice and the means to end their life rapidly and as comfortably as we have the means to do so.

I think a living will should be a binding legal contract, not something that can be negated by family members or others once the patient has lost the ability to plead their cause.

If we had euthanasia, I don't think many would suffer to that point.

I personally think it is a God given right........on the cross....after suffering to a point his humanity allowed him to ask for release from His Father.......His father released him from the suffering....(strictly the view I have on my religious upbringing)

Why should any human beings' transition from life to death be to the point of terror from drowning in your own fluids, helpless, dignity stripped away, tortured with pain in some cases??

I also believe, if you do not wish euthanasia, there should be a legally binding contract to that effect that cannot be changed by family, insurance companies or medical practioners.

But I think we should have the legal choice......

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

This post was edited by gentledeepwaters on May 18, 2002.

Martin, you have said everything, and pretty well. I fully agree with you. I will just try to put my point of view, which is no different then yours, in my own words.

Every individual should be given the right to die when they want to. When the pain and the suffering reaches a limit then it is best for the person who is suffering to take this decision.

Even if it's because of the medical costs, or the suffering of the near and the dear ones, it's the person who is going through all the pain, shall be the one to decide whether to end his/her life or not.

I somehow feel that any other person shall not be given the right to decide on behalf of anyone. This is something that does not sound right to me. This has a lot of scope to be abused. If the person is not in a position to decide, whether it is due to a terminal illness or the person is mentally ill, if anyone else has to make the decision, then it is plain murder to me. If the person who is suffering is oblivious to pain (people in coma, mentally ill people), then I am sure that person does not want to die.

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

From Dubyaman:-

FYI, the person shown as POTOMan is India's Home Minister - LK Advani, who is supposed to be the leader of the right-wing in India, and is a strong anti-muslim. The above strip is in response to the riots in India which took the toll to over 3000 last month.

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

the point, martin, is...
are they able to make an informed, coherent & sane decision to die? if so, no problem...
otherwise we get back to euthanizing the mentally incompetent, against their wishes...
your people tried this once before and it didn't work out...
I have no problem with taking mad dogs out of the gene pool...but only after a fair trial...jeffrey dahmer or charlie manson for example...
otherwise, I think simple sterilization would be sufficient to improve the species
"think of it as evolution in action"
larry niven

I have no problem with taking mad dogs out of the gene pool...but only after a fair trial...jeffrey dahmer or charlie manson for example...
otherwise, I think simple sterilization would be sufficient to improve the species

IMHO this is the exactly wrong approach to this discussion. I dont think we should even touch arguments like "cleaning gene-pool" or "improving the species". Thats in no way the reason for any such laws. Its not about to decide who may or may not live on, but only to give everybody the chance to leave this life in dignity if he decides so.
Anything else is murder, even killing Dahmer or Manson under this argumentation would have been murder! No, dont even think about deciding someone elses fate, whoever he is, whatever he did. We're only talking about helping someone who made this decicions for himself, not a single step more.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

If someone is deadly ill and decides he wants to die he should be given, like in Switzerland, a glass of poison he can drink by himself. There's an organisation, DIGNITAS who is helping you with everything if you're a member.

If somebody isn't able to drink the poison for himself, not a member of the family should help but someone else but not a doctor... I don't know.

But how to decide if someone's in coma and can't speak for himself/herself? Would you "kill" him if the doctor says he will never ever awake?

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

I'd be perfectly willing to allow the general public to commit euthanasia so long as 2 other relatives/loved ones agree to the decision. The decision shouldn't be that of the patient alone. There are diseases so horrific and painful that I think it goes without saying that patients would be more eager to commit suicide in these situations.

This isn't a good thing. Many people with suicidal tendencies are glad years later for not deciding to go through with the actual suicide. They obviously are going through some very tough traumatic times and can't take the emotional pain that goes with it. The point is that they got over it, and they had a change of heart.

Some people stricken with a horrible painful disease wish to die, but had more time passed, they may not feel the same way. Of course, for terminal patients, postponing a painful disease is useless. There is a point where patients suffer a sort of "insanity" where they want to die in a situation they wouldn't normally say that. Just like you wouldn't give an insane person a knife (because insane people might make more irrational decisions than a sane person would), you wouldn't let a suffering patient kill himself or herself (because that decision too might be irrational) unless there was no possible cure.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

This post was edited by Hawkeye on Sep 10, 2002.

hmmmmmm.....Suicidal people (if due to emotional stress) are not ever a candidate for euthanasia.

I feel that if you have a painful disease that is terminal......or and this is a BIG/ or a condition that gives you no true quality of life you should be allowed an assisted termination.

I can see where you might want 2 family members, at least to agree if due to an unforeseen accident with no time to prepare.

I disagree that anyone should have any right to stop your wishes if you have had time to prepare and have legally signed an agreement that your wishes would be carried out when you give the word....

I feel in the case of the mentally incompetent..if they should contract a painful terminal disease that a set number of family members should be given the legal right to agree to euthanasia, and in the case of so many......no family.......then a judge, two doctors and perhaps another person in the legal or health field should have the legal right to sign for them.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Yes, I agree with GDW. No one can have the right to keep you from doing what is your will, especially if you are affected by a horrific disease.

Most of the times the loved ones would egoistically keep you alive, simply because they aren't ready to let you go. On the other hand, deciding for euthanasia is always a terribly complicated and hard matter, so your loved ones are expected to help you deciding for the better...

In the end it sounds like a cat who is attempting to bite his tail. What's right and what's wrong?

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

This post was edited by andromacha on Sep 10, 2002.

Sigh.......you are so right in that, andromacha.........

I just want and wish the legal tools for euthanasia out there to stop miserable suffering if wanted.

You know.......push come to shove.....no matter the circumstances.......except in case the person cannot speak or arrange euthanasia for themselves if it did become legal.......does not mean YOU MUST choose it.......and some will not....

But for those with no hope of relief.....no cure in sight for them......dammit....it is humane..........

And I will tell you right now........even if became legal.....there WILL be health professionals who will choose NEVER or at times NOT to assist in euthanasia.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Similarly, I have seen scenes in many movies in which they show that a horse (or any other pet for that matter) is suffering from pain, and even though the owner loves the pet a lot, but just because they can not bear the pain of their beloved, they put the animal to death.

Now, that type of scene touches me a lot. I just can not imagine, how can one kill someone they love so much, just because the pain that animal is going through is unbearable?

I believe the same logic applies to euthanasia. First of all, suppose that the animal (or the person on bed) has no way to express what it/he/she wants to do. So, is it moral/ethical for their loved ones to take the decision of their life or death and exterminate them? I feel that the decision to live or die has to be of the person who is suffering. If the person can not express the pain or can not express the desire to die (or live), then one should not commit the murder (even though one can feel their pain)! The person might have a strong will that is keeping him/her alive, and he might wish to die fighting rather then just being put to death one fine day.

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

To have an animal let be killed through an injection is worse then hell. I wish I never ever have to do something similar.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

I had to decide to let my cat get killed. She was suffering from lung cancer, she did not eat anymore, didn't move around, she just lay at her favourite place wailing in pain. When I took her to the doctor he told me I could get her drugs to ease her pains which would prolong her life for a month, maybe two. What should I do?? What would you have done?
I took her back to the waiting room, talked to her for little while, kissed her goodbye, payed the doctors bill to kill her and left the place. It was the toughest decision I ever had to make in my life. She was 16 years old and I got her when she was 4 weeks old and I'm still asking myself if it was the right decision or not. She was just a cat, not a human being, but I loved her all the same, and there's not a single day passing that I'm not thinking of her and whether it was right or not. How much more difficult must a decision like this be if its your Mom or Dad who's lying on a bed not able to make his/her own decision?
Her name was Roxanne.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

This post was edited by Martin on Sep 10, 2002.

Her name was Roxanne.

You know, I think this reminds me of a song of yours...?

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

You know, I think this reminds me of a song of yours...?

Right, I wrote it in her memory a few days after her death. And you can tell its quite a sad song.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

A woman in australia was diagnosed with a very painful slow-acting terminal disease. She would have a couple of months before the disease would take effect. Australia outlaws euthanasia.

The woman and her husband went from court to court looking for approval to have euthanasia and couldn't get it. Finally, both of them went to the highest court and were denied there as well.

In the meanwhile of all of this, their story got lots of media attention. During her worst months, she was on a bed with boils all over her face and couldn't move much. She was interviewed by a newscaster. "How do you feel towards euthanasia now that you are forced to live and endure this horrible disease?"

Her response, whispered very lightly into the microphone was, "I'm already dead." After she died, her husband told the press that though it was a grueling time, she was finally free.

This is a true story. She wanted so badly to have euthanasia, but her request was denied. Had the judges of those courts been in her shoes, I'm sure they would have wanted the same.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

And you can tell its quite a sad song.

Absolutely. But it's also a very good song. I always thought it's about a woman, the thought seemed so obvious. :-) Please accept my apologies.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

How much more difficult must a decision like this be if its your Mom or Dad who's lying on a bed not able to make his/her own decision?

It must be impossible to decide that.
You'd always die yourself.
It is horrible to see a beloved one go. The frontier you realize: It lives, it was.
I have to stop or I'll cry again. Null knows quite well I can't remember this moment without getting badly depressive and crying for a long time.
I just oppress remembering this picture. Seeing it in front of me as if it was yesterday always thrusts the stake deeper and deeper. I will never be able to draw it out of my heart. It will stay there for a lifetime and hurts whenever I touch it.
It's so god damn unfair. So terribly said. What shall I do? The pain is always there when I think about it.
It almosts makes me wanna prevent this for the future.
Shall I never ever get to love a living being?

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Not many people truly accept death. I mean, some people know about death, but there is a big difference between knowing about death and accepting death. People who know death know that their grandfather died because he was old, and old people die.

It takes a great maturity to realize that EVERYBODY will die from the healthy to the sick. Not just that, but that your friends and family will die. All the ones you love will eventually die. You too, will die. Of course, you might have known this, but you might not have truly accepted it. This concept only hit me 6 months ago. I mean I knew I'd die, but I never really let myself think about it. Death seems so distant to you, because you are young. You never let yourself realize that death is never more than a few feet away every second of every day of every year of your life. Rarely are we ever in a situation where we couldn't kill ourselves if we weren't cautious.

This isn't an avoidable thing, and to accept death is to accept an unfaltering truth about yourself and your loved ones. I'm glad I got this realization early in my life. I am no longer afraid of the great beyond.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Not many people truly accept death.

What does it mean to "accept death"?
I cannot understand this expression. I mean, how shall anyone ever accept his own death? That means he has lived his life and doesn't expect anything anymore, that there is nothing more to look forward to, that it doesn't matter anymore if life continues or not.
Or it means one doesn't give a damn about tomorrow, live everyday as if it's the last without consulting anybody's wishes.
Just being aware of the fact that you are mortal yourself does not necessarily mean you accept it. I know what I'm talking about. Though I experienced the process of dying I cannot say I accept it, not at all. I know this might be my last evening tonight but although I had quite enough time meanwhile to get used to it I dont think I will ever accept it!

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Martin, my love and muse, if you could remember you probably thought the same damned thing as you were being born.....ROTFLMAO

We are born alone unless you have a twin or extra's in there, and you die alone.....mainly because we are single beings..seperate..... a complete individual unto ourselves.

Birth is a transition, death is a transition.

Can you not feel the spirit in you....the you of you....and feel that it is deathless in a way??

Tis true......we grieve for those gone......for our loss of them......not for their loss of us.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Birth is a transition, death is a transition.

No. We're getting on slippery ground here. I just dont believe in this. There is no "before" and "after" in my world....

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

okee dokee when we meet up in the next transition I WILL remind you of these words.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

This post was edited by gentledeepwaters on Sep 11, 2002.

Alright, dont forget to bring along the cookies! :-D

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de