Reading Other Topics

While we were discussing the ethics on euthanasia, I started wondering about this other important topic. Atleast all the people on this forum unanimously agree on the ethics of Euthanasia - a person should have the right to die (in dignity). And, if anyone else decides on their behalf whether they shall live or die is not acceptable. If anyone else makes the decision that they need to be put to death, then it's plain murder.

Would the same logic apply to abortion? I mean, the child doesn't even know the meaning of life and death. The child has just been conceived a few weeks ago. In what conditions shall one be allowed an abortion? Should abortion be made illegal, as it is plain murder? If it should be allowed then under what circumstances? If the mother's life is in danger, but the child is fine, then should it be allowed? If the child is suffering from some terminal disease, then what shall we do? Just now we have discussed that even if the person is mentally ill or in coma, in some form of oblivion to pain, then also he/she has the right to decide to die or to live, and noone else can take the decision on his/her behalf. Doesn't the same apply to the child who has not even be born till now? Should he be aborted just because there is some disease which the child might have?

What about other reasons of abortion? Just because the parent's feel that they are not in a condition to raise the child because of their financial or other problems? Or, just because they forgot to take the precautions, and there are some social reasons because of which they can not raise the child? Well, IMO, once a child has been conceived, it has all the rights an adult human being has, and abortion is plain murder. It's a violation of the right to live of any individual!

I don't give a damn about any religious reasons behind these topics, so I don't care what different religions says about these. But, this is my personal opinion about both the topics - abortion and euthanasia. Every individual has a right to die and the right to live. No-one, and I mean, no-one shall take away these rights!

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

I disagree.....a thirteen year old or even l0 year old female should have to bear a child to term from rape, when a simple pill can stop the pregnancy??

A fetus should be brought to term with dread disease to die a lingering death under the laws as they stand!!

A young woman, struggling through college or high school, should have to bear a child, unwanted, unplanned for, from a one night stand??

A too old mother who is pregnant with a severely mentally disabled child, should have to bear it.......knowing she will be too old to protect it, care for it as it grows...??

Forgive me, but males should only have a voice in these decisions if they are going to be there 24/7 for the child for 20 some odd years....in all ways.

There are too many abused, neglected, starving children in all countries and all walks of life now.....

The answer is responsible sex....both parties should protect each other....from unwanted pregnancy and from disease..you can get the safety net from any corner grocery.....female and male...

The child has not only the right to live, but he should have the right to come into this world planned for, wanted, loved, with two parents prepared to meet his needs and God willing both of the parents mentally stable.

Abortion is not an easy choice, even for the most callous of females, we were made to breed and protect our young. But I salute any female that chooses not to bring a child into an environment that is not nurturing.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

In Switzerland we're currently discussing (and soon voting) about two bills on abortion, and opinions are pretty different.
The current legal situation is quite unclear. Altho the laws would prohibit any form of abortion, authorities won't punish you if certain conditions are met (talks with your doctor and the such).
Now there are two bills. The first one wants to prohibit abortion completely (including heavy punishment), except the mother would die and there's no other way to save her life. In exchange, she would get some (financial) support to raise the child.
The second bill wants to make abortion legal for the first 12 weeks, or if the mother's health/life is at risk. The older the baby is, the greater the risk has to be for the abortion to be legal.

My opinion is that absolute prohibition is utterly ignorant. People (women) should be given the choice to do what they think is best for their (and the unborn) life.
Imagine, f'r instance, a 12 years old girl who is pregnant from rape and is forced to keep the child. That girl's youth is pretty much ruined; her parents will have to take care of the baby, and who dares to estimate the amount of psychological damage the girl (and later the child) suffers from this? It's just plain wrong!
And I can't wholly accept that argument about murder. Taking this to extremes, every kind of sex or contraception would be murder, as contraception kills one egg cell per month (a potential human life), let alone the millions of sperms that die! Today even the pill contains hormones that make it difficult for the fertilized egg to get lodged. Is this murder, too? And when you force the woman to keep and grow her child, what do you get? An mother with serious problems, often resulting in a child with serious problems. And sometimes a destroyed family.

OTOH abortion shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, i.e. there should be some sort of controlling mechanism. Probably having to pay the abortion yourself (if it's not an emergency) is enough. An obligatory talk with a doctor would be even better.

As for who makes the decision, IMHO both (woman and man) should both get a chance to express their feelings/opinion. After all a baby would change the lifes of both of them.
I'd leave the final decision to the woman tho, because it's her body, and because (supposedly) only 3 out of 100 men support their girlfriend/wife at all.

Just my .02. :-)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

In my opinion, every woman who doesn't want her child should be obliged by law to have a talk to a doctor/psychologist/social person (together with the "father" of the child).

I think the Swiss won't vote against abortion.
Anyways, Swiss females would abort in another country or, very worse, try to abort by hurting themselves.

In the past many women felt more than sorry not have been given enough information concerning the topic.

If I got pregnant, no matter how even if it would have been rape, I would keep the child whatever happened. I wouldn't want to kill something inside me. A life. I'd feel something for it and I can't blame the baby for its father.
Another very hard decision for me would be if I knew my child was very ill and wouldn't live very long. I still ha my problems and I would have psychological problems for a lifetime. But maybe I couldn't bare the responsibilty for this. I just couldn't handle with it, I think, but I'd also feel like a Nazi when I'd abort my ill child.

What makes me very angry is to hear of women who are, sorry, fucking through the world without thinking of contraception.
They get pregnant and abort. Maybe they even get AIDS but that's their problems.
I know a woman (she's about 30) who made exactly this: drunk, unsafe sex, pregnancy, abortion. Sure, she is the one that suffers for her life to have killed a baby (or not if she doesn't care) but, I mean, God, where are we!? Every 12 years old kid knows about contraception and these women just don't use it! I can't believe it. I would believe it if such a woman wanted to get pregnant and keep a optional baby but the other way: It shows how ignorant, careless and indefferent we are.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

My point is simple. Abortion destroys life. What if the doctors say that that it is not possible to carry on with abortion due to any reason. So, shall the mother kill the child as soon as the baby is born? Will that be okay? If killing a child after it's born is murder, then why is it not a murder when it's in the womb?

For all situations such as rape victims, teen pregnancies, women struggling through college, or high school, too old a mother worrying about raising the child, unwanted, unplanned pregnancies, through one night stands or any other reason for that matter, my answer is this - when a woman gets pregnant she has the choice to choose life for her preborn by giving her baby up for adoption or by raising the baby herself. There are many people who want to adopt and prolife groups who can help her to have her baby. There is also help on the internet through websites like http://www.lifecall.org and http://www.silentscream.org (This website graphically shows an abortion 11 weeks after conception).

Two wrongs don't make it right. If anyone committed a mistake, whether it was a one night stand, or whether it was rape, the preborn has no reason to suffer. Why should the child be made to suffer for the mistakes of it's parent's?

Forgive me, but males should only have a voice in these decisions if they are going to be there 24/7 for the child for 20 some odd years....in all ways.

Well, I don't think it's a fight of males and females. Of course, no decision should be forced on anyone. The woman should have a choice for abortion, and they should also be given a choice to murder the child after it's born. But, don't tell me that by making it legal it has become ethical. It's a murder and it will remain a murder whatever the laws say. Even if the child is suffering from a terminal disease, would you have killed the child after it's born? If no, then why do you want the power to kill it when it's not born?

Of course abortion is not an easy choice, it's a brave decision, but why is it brave? Because, a woman knows that she is killing a life, and that is why it is brave of her to go ahead with that decision. There is a 'post abortion syndrome' (PAS) which woman usually suffer from. Women get depressed, have life-long regrets, need counseling, have marital problems and even get suicidal after abortions.

Why can't the woman give up the child for adoption? And contact such agencies which offer help in these circumstances? And, let a life live?

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

What if the doctors say that that it is not possible to carry on with abortion due to any reason.

Then the female must carry to term.

So, shall the mother kill the child as soon as the baby is born? Will that be okay? If killing a child after it's born is murder, then why is it not a murder when it's in the womb?
Realistically it is murder....many animals will reabsorb the zygote into themselves if conditions in the enviroment would not support the nurturing of the infant to be...unfortunately we do not have that option. Some of the oldest civilizations on this earth...do kill the infant after birth....usually female.

There are many people who want to adopt and prolife groups who can help her to have her baby.

It is an option..the best option....but this thread is about the Ethics of Abortion.

Two wrongs don't make it right.

Grins.......rape is just one wrong done. For a young adult female...a simple pill will prevent the pregnancy....what about the l3 year old or younger being raped by a family member, no one listens to that...where is her recourse??

Why should the child be made to suffer for the mistakes of it's parent's?

My point exactly....in some circumstances...the child will be born into suffering.....To give life is damn easy....to sustain and nurture it takes committment, a mentally stable parent at least, and resources some do not have.

Yes...the decision to abort does have life long consequences...

And no.....I have never opted to abort for myself...

I have just seen the consequences of a lot of unwanted children.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

For all situations such as rape victims, teen pregnancies, women struggling through college, or high school, too old a mother worrying about raising the child, unwanted, unplanned pregnancies, through one night stands or any other reason for that matter, my answer is this - when a woman gets pregnant she has the choice to choose life for her preborn by giving her baby up for adoption or by raising the baby herself. There are many people who want to adopt and prolife groups who can help her to have her baby.

That is your opinion and I respect it, but are you willing to force your opinion upon any woman (or man, for that matter) who might think different?
Even if abortion is legal (partly or fully), you still don't have to abort!
The Pope says that contraception is a sin, and many Catholics (and probably other religions) share this opinion. But would you accept it if they were about to prohibit contraception by law?

Why can't the woman give up the child for adoption? And contact such agencies which offer help in these circumstances? And, let a life live?

I'm not a woman (nor have I ever given birth to a child) and thus can't describe the feelings a mother has.
From the biological point of view, the baby stimulates (via hormones) the maternal instinct. Many many women find it very hard to give their child away (which, IMHO, is perfectly okay). There are even some stories of surrogate mothers who refused to give the baby away once it was born.

Another example (a more specific one if I may), there are some educations you can't finish when you're pregnant. A very close friend of mine has missed such a chance when she's 'accidently' become pregnant. (She's soon gonna marry tho, so this story has a happy end. :-) ) She's 24 and it'd have been her second apprenticeship (the job she always wanted to do), but what if this happens to a 15 years old girl? Can you expect her to keep the child, give up her education (and many other things), basically destroying many of her future chances just because you think abortion is murder?
What if there is not enough money to raise the child?

As I said before, I strongly oppose abortion as a means of contraception. But I think sometimes it's the best (or least bad) way, and a woman should be allowed to choose the way she thinks is best.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

That is your opinion and I respect it, but are you willing to force your opinion upon any woman (or man, for that matter) who might think different?

My opinion is that forcing people is not really at issue. They will make their own decisions. The point is that the truth of the matter is so very simple and the issues so black and white that we shouldn't even have to wonder what would happen if we forced someone to think one way or another.

Abortion causes death, plain and simple. Willfully causing death is wrong, plain and simple, with very few notable exceptions.

But would you accept it if they were about to prohibit contraception by law?

I think that in general there are too many laws and too few people with common sense and a desire to do good. Society would work much better if people were more self-governing.

So, no, I don't believe that laws are always the answer. However, killing is wrong enough and damaging enough that laws are enacted to prevent it; otherwise we would have innocent people being exploited (and obliterated) by bad people.

As it is, without strict laws against abortion, we have helpless people being exploited by irresponsible people. Laws are needed to prevent that.

Abortion is not a matter of women's rights any more than murder is a matter of killer's rights.

C

Sig Wanted -- Apply Within

I guess, the ratings have changed their meanings once again. I thought the orange ratings were to separate out the average posts from the well-written ones. I really enjoy reading Chris' posts, and I seriously believe that his posts are really well-written. Please don't mistake the *orange* button for showing your disagreement to the opinion of the post!

Jaz, can we allow a person to change it's ratings, just in case there is a change of heart and the person wants to change the ratings at a later stage? Will that be too complicated to implement?

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

As an adopted child, I have a rather poignant perspective on this issue.

The only time abortion is okay is when the mother's life is in danger. Period. Note that this can include the severe emotional difficulties inherent in bearing a rape child. That endangers the mother's life in a way that is just as real.

The problem with our society is that we make abortion the choice of the mother in any circumstance. The whole "pro-choice" camp is really misnamed. The way that the issue is championed by so many, it should really be called "anti-responsibility".

(I am making some rather broad statements here, so please forgive me long enough to explain myself. I am aware of the breadth and absolute nature of my statements, and I realize that these issues are more complex than what I have said above would indicate.)

The truth is that to abort is to kill. RCD has it right. Do we run around yelling that nobody allows us to kill ourselves or our neighbors? Why isn't there a major societal clamor for the right to take the life of another? Of one's self? (Casting, for a moment, the euthanasia argument aside--I want to stick with one can of worms at a time ;) )

Contrast that with the major press and attention that the high-noise "pro-choice" movement gets. How would the public respond if they went around with posters saying, "We want the right to kill unborn children!" or "Let us sidestep the natural consequences of our own actions by taking a life! It's our right as women!"? This really does cast a different light on things, doesn't it?

The movement is not really about saving the life of an endangered mother, nor is it about helping people to overcome their errors. It is about wanting to avoid consequences.

Keep in mind that I am talking about the movement, not about abortion in general. As I stated above, I do think that abortion can be justifiable in some circumstances, but those circumstances are extreme and do not involve a previous decision, however bad, of the mother. They are out of her control and have to be dealt with.

To say that abortion is the choice of the mother is to say that some kinds of murder are okay, as long as we don't know the victim yet, or as long as the victim is too young to decide whether it wants to live. Ludicrous.

The truth of the matter is that (except in cases of rape) the mother already made her choice, even if it was a particularly poor one or was poorly thought through. There are natural and proper consequences for bad choices, and this choice happens to be an exceedingly bad one that she will have to live with in one way or another.

It is true that it is unfair that the man should get off "scott free" so often. Men are responsible in these situations every bit as much as the mother is, but they don't bear the burden. It is unfortunate that this kind of irresponsibility is so much easier for men to get away with. The fact is that the woman is the one who gets pregnant. Perhaps, then, it is women who need to take a harder line on unwanted sex and needed contraceptives. One way or another, responsibility should be taken before the child is even a possibility.

I am the result of a poor decision. My very existence today is possible because I was given up for adoption rather than aborted. I have had a wonderful life and continue to enjoy wonderful things. All of that I owe to my biological mother (whom I know), who was wise and kind enough, even at 17 years old, to bear me to term, dealing with all of the emotional difficulties, embarrassment to her family and self, and loss of opportunities that come from doing so, and then give me up without even seeing me. She could not and would not take my life, and for that I am eternally grateful to her.

I call that courage, and I think the world needs more of it. It is the courage to suffer humiliation because one must face the consequences of one's own decisions, and because killing is wrong. It is the courage to get up and move on with life, making the best of that poor decision, because killing is wrong. It is to stand up and say, "Killing is wrong."

Her life is good now. She has married and has several successful children. She feels regret for her poor decision, but imagine how much deeper that regret would be if I had never been given the chance to live!

I live; someone else does not because his mother was a "pro-choice", anti-responsibility advocate.

C

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This post was edited by chris on May 21, 2002.