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[thinkmode]well, well, well...okay then, lets enter another round....<sigh> why does it always have to be me, then?[/thinkmode]

Once again I have to ask the same question again: when does life start?

What you, rather the abortion antis, are doing here is a forbidden stimulus of lower human instincts. Something that looks human does not necessarily have to be human. Of course everybody looking at these pictures got at least a bad feeling with it. But one has to ask first why is that so? Because you're looking at something that *looks* like a human being that gets killed.

But I dare to question two facts in this statement: is it in fact a human being? And can something be killed that's not alive?

Let me give an example for this emotional guided misjudgements: everybody smiles and gets a warm feeling while looking at a butterfly gently weaving in the wind. How many people think about killing it? How might other people react if someone does in fact kill it? But about all of these people crying about the dead butterfly wont hesitate a single second to kill a spider or a bug crawling up their leg. Why?

Or: how many fish is caught and killed everday to feed us? Noone, well, only few people show resistance to that. But think about the outcries about reports of dolphins being caught in those trawls. Suddenly the same action that feeds us on the one hand becomes murder on the other hand. Why?

As soon as there are emotions involved logic is switched off. So if you really wonna discuss the facts about a difficult topic like this, at least *try* to leave emotions outside (I know its difficult or nearly impossible anyway). But stoking these emotions and using its effects for own purposes is something I'd like to call manipulation!

Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't it you, RCD, who demanded the use of nuclear weapons against your neighbour? Wonder how you will tell your bomb not to kill unborn babies, but their so mighty evil Daddies only...

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

No, I won't watch this video, I will never watch a execution (what would lead us to the next topic) and I would never watch an euthanasia nor will I ever watch a butcher killing an animal.
I just can't look at it. Now you will take out your flame thrower again to flame me because you think I am ignorant of not seeing a difference between killing an innocent human being, an nnocent animal and a guilty human being. But I can. I just can't see the act of it. These pictures seem to me a bit like those anti cigarette campaigns (you know, pictures of lungs on the box and so).
Do you want every woman in big trouble (not able to raise the child) to watch this video and then say: "Look you devil, look what you're going to do"? It's blackmailing in some way and in another way it's "making her a bad conscience and reproaches".
But if it must be it just must.
And every waisted egg and sperm has got human DNA and cells so a living being, too.
As I already stated I'd have problems with a woman who wants to abort like my neighbour who kind of lost her best friend because she couldn't understand she could have sex without contraception and then aborted. (The hight was that she said she had kept it if the father would have been her friends brother who didn't feel any affection for her... but that's another topic).

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Maybe I'm missing your point completely, but hey, did anybody ever say abortion is fun?
It's always a difficult (and painful) decision, and nobody here tries to deny that!
You know, the Swiss anti-abortionists had to withdraw one of their (very penetrant!) campaings. They showed images of abortion 'leftovers' and the such, hoping that it would produce bad feelings about abortion. However, their campaign badly backfired because the pictures were so disgusting that people started protesting against them.
I don't think trying to make people feel guilty about their (possible) decisions is a good way to argue. Abortion is a tough decision anyway, disgusting pictures only make a hard way even harder.

About the movies. I've tried to watch them, but I'm afraid the quality was so bad I didn't recognize much. Is there any player option I'm missing? (Using Windoze Media Player 6.4)

By the way, speaking of the India/Pakistan conflict... when was the last time you've watched a reallife movie about war victims, or Chernobyl? War is murder, too.
Yet you still want India to attack Pakistan.
I know you have your reasons, and I assume you do mind about the victims a war would claim. It must have been a hard decision. Yet you have your reasons and think it's the best (or least terrible) solution. (<-- Absolutely no irony intended)

Please consider this: a woman who wants to abort has to make a tough decision, too. She doesn't want to abort just for fun. Often abortion is the only way to avoid problems she can not solve. If no other choice is left, it doesn't mind whether she's happy with it or not.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

I think I was unable to put forward my point-of-view clearly. The rush of adrenalin in my bloodstream while trying to defend my points allowed me a gap to think before writing properly. I would like to say my point one more time, this time trying to be more specific.

0. I don't want anyone to be forced on this issue. It is completely upto the parents (especially the mother) to decide what she wants to do.
1. Abortion is Murder.
2. IMO, some types of murders are okay. I have mentioned this earlier in my middle-east post too that, it is okay to kill in the following circumstances :-
   a) while fighting for your survival,
   b) while defending yourself, or
   c) while fighting for your country in a war,

Abortion in a situation when it becomes life-threatening for either the child or the mother is okay. But, that does not mean it is not killing. It is a murder, but it is okay IMO. Similarly, in a war, when you are fighting for your country, you are definitely killing the opponent, but it is okay, again IMO, because it falls under the above 3 categories.

What triggered my emotions in the earlier posts was that people don't want to accept it as a murder, and even though they are saying that noone does it for fun, they are also adding that it is okay, and that we are not killing a human being, or something that can become a human being. I don't quite agree to that argument. Please, accept that it is a human being, when I see a human figure, when I see a baby responding to different kind of stimulus, when I know that the heart of the baby has started functioning at the age of 4 weeks of gestational age, then please don't tell me that since we don't remember anything at that age, it's okay for our parents to kill us! So, I just wanted to *impose* my opinion on anyone, instead of trying to convince them with real arguments, that it was murder. If you do accept that it's a murder, then I have put forward my point. When is it okay to commit that murder is a different point. Well, that's all I had to say.

And, I believe that Chris has beautifully described the situations when is it okay and when is it not okay to perform that act.

AFA the video is concerned, well, I can not say anything about the veracity of it. If it does sound like a hoax and the baby looks more than 3 months old, then I apologize for pointing you to that website. Yes, I agree that the quality of the video is very bad, but I was able to see a much better picture (still not good enough) when I watched it at a significantly lower resolution.

That's it from my end on this issue.

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

So I finally have to comment as well here:

I tried to view the videos (I saw all 5) and I hardly can see anything as the quality is way too bad. In part 5 when the show dead fetuses I have to tell you that they are FAR older than 3 months. I've seen similars on the "Körperwelten" exhibition where they also showed several malfomed ones, most of them died during pregnancy, some were born dead and I also saw similar fetuses at the pathology of the University of Innsbruck.

Therefore I can't handle this as an objective documentation of abortion but as what it is: a prapaganda movie of anti-abrotion guys.

And here we are at the main problem and I fully agree with Martin: If you want to discuss such a topic at least _try_ to be objective (all of you). Otherwise a discussion doesn't make sense IMO.

And as I see it all it's about is the question when does life start. You can try to answer that question medically, you can try to answer it legally but I bet you won't find the correct answer as this is still one of natures secretes.

If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. -- Mark Twain

This post was edited by madmaxx on May 22, 2002.

You are right on that Mad Maxx....it is still a secret.....

One point that has not been brought up fully, is the reason Pro Choice was fought for and won.

The sad truth is...abortion has been going on for as long as man has had a faint idea of how to go about it.

Pro choice was fought for to prevent the wirehanger, knitting needle, crochet hook, herbs, drugs, do it yourself or quick fix quacks or legitimate doctors breaking the law to prevent the god awful horrors and outright deaths these methods brought about to desperate women.

And if Pro Choice is not in place.....it will come back.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Maybe we can discuss the legal issues too in a separate thread. I was reading an article recently about a similar situation in India. India is one of the earliest countries to legalise abortion (as early as 1970). And, since then instead of helping the pro-choice mothers, it has infact made things difficult for them due to the discrepancies in the law.

I will read up on this again, and then will post something soon...

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

This post was deleted by request of the author.

I fully aggree with GDW in every point.

My point is simple. Abortion destroys life.

My question is as simple as that: when does life start?
From the biological point of view the unfertilized ovum is alive as well, but nature kills it once a month...
I dont wonna get pathetic here, sorry.
My true belief is noone - especially not noninvolved males - has a right to tell any woman what to do under whatever circumstances she got pregnant. Its her and only her decision, because and she alone has to live with this decision for the rest of her life whatever this decision looks like.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

This post was deleted by request of the author.