Reading Politics

One other point I would make is against giving tax breaks to homeschooled students. If parents want to homeschool their children, they should go ahead and pay the same taxes. The public schools are underfunded already, and the revenue they would lose from homeschooling wouldn't help. Education, infrastructure, and other public services are funded by tax money, and all private citizens must bear the burden for these things, because they make our society better--whether or not we directly use each of these services.

I somewhat disagree. If the funding system is setup properly, the school should receive the right amount of money for the amount of students it has. If it has one less student, it should only loose the resources that would've been necessary to support that student, so there is no net gain or loss. That this is not the case sounds more like a fault of the government and the funding process than of homeschooling.

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

Wow. I quess you have had extensive association with a bunch of home schooled people. My bad. Because when I run into a homeschooled teen, I find that they are very bright and have the basic's of common sense that many public schooled students lack. It is also a fact that they perfrom & achieve higher standards when rated against those of public school's. They perform better in every area such as reading, language & math.

Sorry dude, he's right on. There are probably parents out there who can raise and school their children such that they are socially well adjusted. The majority do not. Homeschooled children in my experience don't end up having enough time with peers to develop social skills.

Homeschooler advocates might try to parade their social awkwardness as "non-standard thinking" and a rebellion against "social conformity." That's horse manure. These kids really just have no idea how to interact with other people.

I was friends with a homeschooler in middle school. He had a great deal more trouble in social situations than anyone else. And it wasn't just because he was smart. Even around the other, smart, shy kids, there was still an extra degree of awkwardness.

I then dated a homeschooler. I spent a good deal of time with her and her brother. Real, unedited conversation with her brother:

(I'm sitting there playing a computer game, showing him how to pull off some trick)

Her brother: My butt is warm.

(I've gotten use to oddball comments like this from him. It's very apparent why he says them -- his parents never take him outside the house and into situations where he talks with other people or his peer group. I don't make any comments.)

... a few minutes pass....

Her brother: Oh! I know why! I forgot to wear underwear!

(He runs off, to put some on apparently)

He wasn't kidding or joking in any way. Now, guess how old he was when he said this.

...

14. Do you think this kid is in any way prepared for the real world? I don't. Luckily he's going to public school for highschool. Might not learn science and math as well, but at least he'll know how to communicate with other human beings.

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

I love America.

As do I, my service to her precedes me!

That's why It's extremely upsetting to see a report which showed that U.S. students' scores on math and science tests were well below those of teens from around the world.

I speak on this because I was there and I was a contributor! Yeah my 12th grade year was 1994 but it was just the same as today. I didn't give one shit about what grades I got. I didn't do much homework and if there was some type of long term project you can forget it, I wasn't doing it. Period, end of discussion!

I took algebra 1 three times I believe. I took english 9 and 10 two times and my senior year was a mix bag of 10th, 11th and 12th grade classes. Am I stupid, that's probably what you are thinking. Actually, no I'm not stupid but I didn't exactly have the role models to set me right from the beginning. My surroundings did not foster a sense of self worth. This is partly why to this day I still have a very pessimistic outlook on life. Yeah, it's hurt me big time! I say that society is partly to blame for my current demeanor, after all society shapes us from the very day we start interacting with it.

The American society as I see it is a big pile of fucking dog shit. On the home front we SUCK at raising our kids. We throw them into a society of greed, callousness and a sense that money brings happiness. It's sickening! There is no morality in the American society, it's all about *ME*, what can *I* get, what will *YOU* do for *ME*, etc...

This does nothing to foster good values in our school careers! I'm living proof that the American society is FUCKED UP!

I really don't like starting posts with this statement but I dissagree with pretty much everything you've said beyond the fact that the American school system is lacking (to put it lightly).

Of course, there are reasons and for those of you who think that the total cause for the poor academic standards in this country is lack of federal funds you may as well stop reading right now.

I don't think that the total cause for acadamic failures in the US is due to our lack of federal spending on it, though I have experianced first hand that it plays an enormous roll in it. I went to a very small school in a rural area in Texas. My senior year we finally had the funding in the history department to replace the globe we were using...The globe still featured the U.S.S.R. as a political entity if that tells you how outdated it was. And a globe mind you costs roughly fifteen dollars if you go to Wal-Mart during their back to school thing. Most of our textbooks were beyond outdated (and that's due to the fact that Texas doesn't like to spend alot of money on schools that don't have enough students to support a football team). We finally managed to replace the '86 Macs when I was in nineth grade, and my 11th year we replaced the referbished Win 98 comps with new ones featuring Win 2000.

My point with pointing things like that is how can you expect kids to get a decent education when they can't even get a text book written after 1984? Or gain tech skills off of machines that by right shouldn't even function anymore? The only way for schools to get things like new books and computers is for the govt that supports the schools to spend more money on tools for learning.

This country needs to shake off the rotten dregs of the Dewey Decimal System and get back to basics.

If I'm not mistaken isn't it relatively important to understand the workings of the decimal system in order to get anywhere learning things like Algebra and Physics? Which in turn leads to being able to do decently on the Math/Science portion of the SATs? Adding and subtracting is great and all but only if you're able to understand how to apply that to the skills you need to actually get into college and pass...

But you can’t teach without discipline no matter what the method. Kids who are chronic trouble makers should be transferred to another class where they are forced to behave themselves, then the rest of the class can learn.

I'm going to have to agree with MclainCausy on this one. The social ills surrounding the problems with "chronic trouble makers" also needs to be dealt with, and spending alot of money on weapons research at the Pentagon doesn't cut it.

Also, the media attention placed on such isues as gang violance and drugs isn't nessicarily focused in the right area. More attention is given to statistics and in some cases glorifying advocates of it (the way MTV idolizes musicians that sing/rap/whatever of the joys of being in a gang and doing drugs).

Don't get me wrong, discipline isn't a bad thing, however, I think drawing more attention to "chronic troublemakers" by making a big deal of removing them and then giving them their own classrom so everyone in the hall can talk about it is the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot and then attempting to run a marathon.

Children should also not be promoted just because the rest of the class is. You do them no favors when you advance them. They’re not getting what they came to school for and might as well have stayed at home.

I actually agree with this. Children who get passed along out of pity or sheer laziness of the educator is only getting hurt in the long run.

And the third problem is the self-esteem hoax in our school's. There needs to be put an end to the feel good teaching/learning done throughout the country's school's. School isn't a petting farm of happy emotions that need to be glorified every minute with spongy & bubbly teaching.

Alrighty...I think we need to stop the train for a moment here. Self esteem issues are a big deal. This is another one I can atest to personally. When first graders go home crying everyday because they aren't meeting the standards of what their peers think they should be doing or because they have the wrong color of shoes then we have a definate problem.

However, as for the feel good meathod of teaching, I've yet in my whole of 19 years to experiance that. When I screwed up I just got looked at, shrugged at and told to do better or fail. End of story. And in all honesty I've not met another student who's been subjected to this method of teaching you're mentioning.

I also feel that showing pride in students achievments isn't at all a bad thing. What motivation would a child have to keep doing better if they weren't told that by doing well they're alright. This would also atribute to self esteem issues.

Iv'e experienced this horrid nonsense time & time again while attending the public school system all my life. Instead of teaching, we attend to the students needs with counseling and pat's on the head.

And how would scolding and punishing a child for not understanding something do them any good? However, I'm not a blind fool and know quite well that just he pat on the head crap doesn't get you anywhere. If by ceasing that you mean a teacher actually stopping long enough to try and help students individually with understanding what it is they did wrong then yes, I agree.

However if you're refering to teachers that stand there and ask "if anyone has any questions then speak up" then I think you've got the wrong idea. Sitting in a room with 20+ students and having to admit outloud that you don't understand something that supposedly everyone else got right off the bat then you aren't going to be to inclined to ask. At least that's the way most kids I've met work.

Plus, how bout using teachers that actually have credentials.

If teachers made more moeny and got better benifits, than I'm sure people would be much more inclined to spending four years or more of their life and money learning to be one.

It’s time to stop putting federal band-aids on our educational programs and do something meaningful for a change.

Couldn't agree more. That's why it's a wonderful idea to dismantle and reassemble federal programs for education to make a much more effective system, instead of patching up the old one and waiting for another part to break. Wait, but that'd cost more money. (Sorry, but it was far too tempting to add that. =))

----

I've also got a few comments of my own to add to what would make the education system in our country better.

Smaller class sizes where teachers could actually pay more attention to each student would serve as a great way to boost the amount of functional knowledge a child gets out of their education than they do being herded around from class to class like cattle.

Another thing I feel very strongly would improve the cognitive abilities of children in both their school and working years would be better funding for fine arts in education. Stimulating the creative forces of the mind work wonders toward critical and abstract thinking that is important for being able to do well in most universities and gives one a bit of an edge when in the work place.

--Jami

P.S. I didn't write this to flame you or make less of your ideas. However, I felt it nessicary to interject my own thoughts into the discussion.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Now, not to offend anybody here, because I am engaged to an American guy and I like America as well. But... when in the world your education system has been good?!

I am sad to say that here in Italy the American system has always been brought up as the system to never follow, because not good enough to actually teach children. Probably in college is a little different, even though I still don't think it is a very serious system as well (sorry Hawkeye, but I have to speak my mind here).

I mean, I think that the real challenge is the post graduate degree there, and not the undergraduate. On the contrary here in Italy I am bursting my ass to study for exams also in the undergraduate degree. Our professors want always the maximum we can get, and I have seen a few people failing an exam only because the professor was convinced they could have done much more. So, even if they could have gotten the minimum grade to pass, the professor still failed them.

Also, I think that more or less everything (aside from post-graduate and doctorate) in the American educational system has problems. Italians study English in elementary school (this is why I know it so well: I've been studying it for 17 years now), and 2 foreign languages in middle school (this started only a couple of years ago, and so I couldn't use such a benefit). I mean, can you believe this? We'll have kids knowing English and German (or French, Spanish, Arabic...) like mother tongues, and what do the Americans do?

From what I have heard especially from our Prime Minister, Italy has adequated itself to the laws and rights of the EU; this means that in the other countries (probably aside from France, because they are still kinda at the middle ages for what concernes foreign languages) English is taught to elementary school children, and two languages are chosen in the middle school.

The Americans have been conquered (well this of course traces back to 1500 or so) by the Spaniards, and for this reason there are several places where Spanish people are a relevant minority. Yet, I don't know of many schools that make it compulsory to study Spanish as well as English.

However, I wouldn't say that all the educational system sucks. I think that if you're willing to pay something like 10 thousand bucks per semester (or is it the whole year?) you can go to Harvard, Yale, MIT, Berkeley... These are still myths in our mind, but I certainly wouldn't want to pay so much for the good education that should be granted to me since the moment I come to life.

Because the right to have a good education is just like the right to life itself. It cannot be alienated; it is deeply unfair for people to be kept in bad educational conditions, as well as bad life conditions. If a person wants to study, it is right for him/her to get the best education possible.

Also, one more thing about your university system, which I honestly don't understand... If a person enrolls in say Art and Literature (would be my case since I am a foreign languages and literatures laureanda - yes, I am working at my final dissertation already!), well why in the world would she/he have to take say Maths? My Hawkeye explained me that you want to get a general culture in college...

At that I have no words! We get the general culture in high school, studying everything that we are supposed to in order to have the best possible general culture that we can get. In college we're supposed to study ONLY what we choose to study. The only strange exam I had to take in fact was computer science (and even so, it was the usage of word/excel/windows... I didn't even have to study to pass it). Everything else is related to my field, and not to solve some double or triple integral that I have learned how to solve in the 5th year of high school.

Maybe the fact that the American high school lasts only 4 years do the trick?

Anyway, as I said earlier, this is not intended to be of offense to anybody. I am as sad and angry as you are Hardballkid, because I wonder why such a great superpower as USA has an education system that sucks.

And to be perfectly honest I would never want to study in America also for the fact that they oblige you to take tests during the course and a final exam immediately after the course is over... that's too much of a high school if you ask me. Here we have the belief that people who are 18/19 or older must have the brains to be honest with themselves and know when to study. Therefore we don't have tests (aside from particular cases: like when the syllabus contains something like 11 books) and we can take the exam whenever we want. This way we can go there at best of our preparation. And I personally find it less stressing.

With the stuff I am studying (linguistics, philology, literature ---> all kinds of briks that deposit themselves on my stomach, causing stomachaches), I would have already committed suicide if I were obliged to take the exam as soon as the course is over. How do you do that when you have 9 books to read for a thing, 4 books for another, 2 books and 1 books for the last two subjects?!

For once I honestly believe that USA should take Europe as a model, and copy from us, because our education system is a little more decent. I am not even saying that our system is perfect; it is far from being perfect in fact, but I do believe that the life of students here is a little fairer, other than us learning more things than the American average student.

Edit. These are just my 2 cents anyway. I don't mean to offend anybody or any Institutions.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

This post was edited by andromacha on Apr 05, 2005.

Some excellent points. Europe (and most countries in the Far East, and some Latin American countries, most notably Costa Rica, a long-standing and stellar example of state education for the whole world to follow) have an awful lot to teahc the US with regards to public education. Again, you can get as good an education in the US as anywhere else in the world--you just have to have the money to pay for it. This leads to an inequitable society in which the wealthy can thrive and those who need to be elevated from poerty and ignorance have a very difficult time elevating their status and knowledge. This is how many elites like things--it keeps the cattle in line. If the system isn't the way it is by design, then it is by apathy of those who could change it.

Just like our particular brand of "free market," which isn't really free at all. Sure, we have public education, just like we have a free market. But the free market is a rigged game in which one class continues to amass more and more wealth. Education, similarly, is a rigged game in the US that, whether by design or not, keeps the status quo in order.

Ewige Blumenkraft!

Just like our particular brand of "free market," which isn't really free at all. Sure, we have public education, just like we have a free market. But the free market is a rigged game in which one class continues to amass more and more wealth. Education, similarly, is a rigged game in the US that, whether by design or not, keeps the status quo in order.

Boy is that optimistic. Our "free market" isn't free at all. Government contracts without bidding, pork barrel legislation, no taxes if you hire enough lawyers. One class isn't amassing more and more wealth because a "free market" is inherently rigged. In a free market the wealthy class would need to hire somebody -- the other classes. They're amassing more wealth because they have lobbies in Washington that get them bigger and bigger handouts each year. The whole system is downright broken.

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

Plus, how bout using teachers that actually have credentials.

Gee, I didn't even notice that before. You contradicted this directly in a subsequent post when you said untrained parents make better instructors. Care to clarify?

Ewige Blumenkraft!