Reading Politics

Having a recent discussion with a friend, who happens to be Asian, about college, the argument of affirmitive action happened to come up. We agreed on many lines on why it is such a horrible system and how it is a legal form of racism. I know he detests it becuase he is a very bright guy who prides himself on getting through life on his own merit, not the color of his skin. So, I ask, why is it still practiced, under the covers maybe, but its still a factor in colleges, proffessions, and daily life? It might be "outlawed" but where is it being enforced- not to mention the grave lawsuits the ACLU would hand out if it were.

Just think of these two virtually idenical scenarios: A white man and a black man apply for a job. The black man is better qualified: the white man gets the position. That's racial discrmination. The 2nd: A white and black man apply for a job. The white man is better qualified: the blacl man gets the job. Thats affiemative action! Now, in what sense is the second result a remedy of the first? It isnt. All I see are two instances of racial discrimination.

To this- Affirmative Action - does it not lift the value off of the shoulders of skill and put the value on the shoulders of skin color and race? Does it not discourage intellectual development and foster ignorance? Is it not responsible for hundreds of thousands, millions?, of qualified students and workers losing their scholarships and jobs, just because they are not a certain race, a certain color throughout its many years in the system? Affirmative Action is a so-called equal-rights program, but that is hardly immaginable or even seen. If a person loses their job to a minority because of Affirmative Action, who in their sane mind would look this over as being in opposition to racism? Its absolutley absurd.

Then- on the opposite side of the spectrum-Of what kind of man can be proud to take such a job? It is the epitome of shame to claim that you are the student at your university, or the worker at your job, because of your race. Is there any merit in genetics?

Some will argue that it is a form of equalizing. That would be the equivalent of offering bread to those who are full and neglecting those who are starving. Who could support such an institute?

The reasoning behind Affirmative Action argues that race is of no value concerning jobs and scholarships. Yet, the very foundation of Affirmative Action is to discriminate on race!
One is not the solution to the other, but rather one is the form of the other.

Anyone up to shed some more light on this vehement subject?

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

The black man is better qualified: the white man gets the position.

From what I've seen this is not the case. In my 10 years of work experience it's been the complete opposite. Believe it or not the 'white' person is the new minority that is being discriminated against in the work place. I've only seen my little piece of the puzzle but that's what I've seen so far.

Where I work, we've got about an even mix of white, black, and hispanic workers. However, we had a customer come in the other day (with a Michael Savage shirt that read on the back "Liberalism is a mental disorder," the fuckwit) whose t-shirt caused some discussion in the back among those who've heard of the "I'm not racist, but"-style philosophy of his fandom. A couple of people we have in the kitchen aren't too fond of the maybe five or six hispanic workers we have working the line-up and food prep. I pointed out that our bosses hired them instead of any of the hundreds of mopey suburban white kids that abound in the service industry because they just work harder. Not all of them are dedicated to their jobs, some of them are about as apathetic as the swath of teenage dipshits they hire at Moe's down the street. The difference here is that even though they're apathetic, they still get their jobs done better. However, this has just been my experience (though Anthony Bourdain wrote in Kitchen Confidential some lavish praise on the practice of hiring illegals because you know they'll get shit done as long as you pay and treat them well, since the average immigrant tends to have a better idea of knowing when you have a good thing going, while your average teenage American kid will be more likely to either dick around or give up).

In the greater scheme of things, I hate the race issue. The old idea of race producing a specific character in a given population came from a much much older time, when a) racial distribution was not nearly as prominent, and b) the ideals of community were much different. With all the globalizing, internet-spreading, tv-watching culture melting going on these days, the difference between two people is based much less on race, or even geographic location, as it is on upbringing (and unfortunately, it would appeare that this sudden shift came just in time for the greatest upswing in the incidence of genuinely stupid fucking parents). We just don't grow up in the same mindset as did the people who invented all the stupid stereotypes we keep throwing around about other people. Another problem with these ideas of racial identity is that most people (at least in my neck of the woods) are too quick to believe this stuff. In a one-month period of time, a few friends and I managed to convince at least half a dozen people that Asians like peanut butter more than other races do because of a genetic predisposition. At least one even believed it when he was told that people from China shit white. We've gotten to the point now that we're getting culturally stupid enough that eugenics could probably make a comeback and we wouldn't question it, and I think that under such circumstances, we're just better off trying to ignore the colour of somebody's skin and pay more attention to more important things.

Thbbbbt

This is such delicate topic. Much like religion etc... So all I have to say to sum up my thoughts about the whole topic is:

1. I don't like the fact that when someone calls me a cracker, I can't defend myself because inturn- I will be the one who is the racist, even if what I said back towards that person was not racially driven (and it wouldn't be, because I wouldn't stoop to that level).

2. I do not like the fact that 2 individuals called me "britney spears" when I got on a bus. I told the bus driver, but he wouldn't do anything because of the race of the individuals. He said might get in trouble.. So once again, I just have to "deal with it".

Of all the things that I have lost in my life, it's my mind that I miss the most.

Believe it or not the 'white' person is the new minority that is being discriminated against in the work place.

Well. I guess. I dont even know anymore. Its like people cant see past the fact that i look different. (If you didnt notice by my screen name, im obviously not white.)

I know he detests it becuase he is a very bright guy who prides himself on getting through life on his own merit, not the color of his skin.

Like i said before, i dont think people can look past the fact that im asian. Its like, they expect me to be really hardworking in school subjects and be really apathetically amazing at violin or something like that. When in fact, i like jazz. A lot. I feel music. Music is my life. The problem with other asians a lot of the time, is that they dont feel it. They just play it. Its like math to them. And yeah, im better than most at math, but thats just how my brain works. I know plenty of asian kids who are terrible at math. And i dont work at school at all. Im an artsy hippy kinda kid. Even my mom doesnt understand that. Im just one big heap of culture shock to her. I wish people could just get past the fact that we all look different and just see whats deeper than that. People are really interesting when you dont care what they look like.

Xo connie ox

"Wishing on a star that's already burned out..."

A most enlightening post, Hardballkid. I find myself exasperated with this debate over affirmative action, distressed by the fact that now some of our society earnestly see reverse descrimination as a tangible solution to our culture's racial ills. Simply put, a man can (or perhaps, should) only garner in life that to which he is entitled through his own merits. Success ought not be handed down from one's heredity to the extent that it requires no work to sustain--nor should the circumstances of a man's predecessors drag him down. The answer to societal problems of class, in which one may have the chance to succeed where another does not, is equality of opportunity. Not equality of results. Affirmative action, despite its positive intentions, falls into the latter category. What do we truly give someone that we put in a reputable university and a high-paying job despite his unqualification? Only the reinforced notion that success in life will not come through hard, determined efforts, but through the fictitious merit of being the member of a descriminated-against minority.

The lower classes of our society are ultimately caught up in an inexorable cycle of circumstance and the cultural ailments that result. Their position on a lower rung of the economic ladder creates what seems like an upward barrier to productivity; this problem is continually being addressed by politicians and interest groups, but it seems, to little avail. And finally, their economic circumstance breeds a culture that is (and I hope I offend no one with this) lazy and unconcerned, deliberately ignorant and short-sighted. This may be too harsh an assessment, but I can think of few other adjectives. There are, of course, exceptions in which people realize their ability to strive to success, but most are left behind. Affirmative action attempts to deal with the economic crisis, but does not address the cultural maladies that accompany it. If we are to succeed in ensuring that every person, black, white, asian, or otherwise has every opportunity to become educated and productive, we must scrutinize every source of the problem. Economic aid, certainly, is of use--and perhaps there would be more of it if our nation would divert its attention from other less profitable enterprises--but in addition simple morality and decency needs to be encouraged by our culture. In lower-class America, a majority of families are left without fathers, despite an often large number of children. Were America to possess the same values about family life and marriage that it did half a century ago, this would be less of a problem. And this is only one example--others come to mind, including our confused sense of criminal justice, and our preoccupation with sexual delight, to name two.

But ultimately, affirmative action is a solution to none of this. It attempts to compensate for racial descrimination by going to the opposite extreme. It is of no real use to the lower-class American, rather, a hindrance. We must provide economic assistance, and also cultural assistance. The two are symbiotic--poverty breeds depraved culture, and depraved culture breeds more poverty. We need to fix the problem (economic, cultural) rather than treat the symptoms (fewer minorities in the academy).

-ecthelion-

This thread has so far consisted of all decent posts in that they're well reasoned. I wouldn't consider even one of them informed though.

Questions:
1. Do any of you actually _know_ what the affirmative action policy states business need to do or are encouraged to do? Or are you just guessing that it's "hire more black people"?

2. Can anyone actually produce any statistics showing that whites are losing jobs to minorities? Not hearsay personal experiences.

3. Anyone taking into account that not too long from now whites will be a minority?

4. The US for a few hundred years was biased against you if you weren't white (and even in some cases, if you were particular kinds of white, say Irish, but that's whole other can of worms). The thinking behind affirmative action is to now be pro for you if you're not white to compensate. Ideological reasons for why this is racist are abound in this thread. Just because it doesn't sit well with you on paper doesn't mean it won't work out in the real world. Anyone have any criticism on a practical level?

I enjoy Chris Rock's take. "I'm not saying a black person should be hired if a white guy does better on a test. But if it's a tie? Fuck 'em!"

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."