Reading Linux

I can't beleive it. No distro has ever done it.

UBUNTU DROVE ME NUTS IN 20 MINUTES FLAT!

That's right, in 20 minutes, I saw my hardware not work, root inaccessible, etc. I didn't stay using it much longer, but I did realize it wasn't meant for me. It booted quickly, in fact, quicker than gentoo if i read it right, but when it ran, it was just horrid. Great for those who want a less involved experience, but I am an admitted ricer, I NEED GENTOO!

I should be ashamed of myself.

Reading your review makes me want to try it out :]

REALLY :]

time to d/l and install...

if you want fast booting system try arch linux. it kicks off *really* fast. it's like debian on i686 with package management.

root inaccessible

i heard you have to do
sudo passwd root
to make it accessible

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

This post was edited by yoshi314 on Jun 11, 2005.

Now hold up here. Ubuntu Linux 5.04 is really damn good, I loaded it on a Celeron 566 and tried it out for a week. I was seriously impressed by it's quick and painless installation. It was clearly the easiest installation I've ran accross! I did not have any of the problems Aynjell had.

Oh and Ubuntu by default is Gnome based. Kubuntu on the other hand has KDE as it's default desktop. So if you like regular window managers be prepared to load that and set it up after installation.

This post was edited by majic on Jun 11, 2005.

[your distro here] by default is Gnome based.
[your distro here] by default is KDE based.
[................] by default is ..... based.
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argh. that's what i don't like about some distros. especially SuSE and YoPER ("KDE is the best and zap the rest") :/

i have gentoo and i'm happy with it. i've been compiling it from the very bottom to the desktop of my choice :] (which _are_ fluxbox, xfce, kde, gnome, afterstep, e17, windowmaker, fvwm2-crystal,rox. usually i stick with xfce and fluxbox though)

well it's not like i don't like ubuntu. i like it's philosophy (100% free , up-to-date-686 debian :] ). i might try it someday. hope it's not focused on gnome like SuSE is on KDE :/

but i already ran across a neat 686-really-up-to-date binary distro called Arch Linux. it's almost as up-to-date as gentoo [really, new packages pop up really fast], and package manager has feature to install your packages from source if you really want it that bad. it has repositories like debian/ubuntu, and similar installer to apt, called pacman :>
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still, it looks like the only way for me is gentoo of LFS :/ i'm doomed :]

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

You can't blame distros for being KDE based. If you want to compete on the desktop with MacOS and XP, it's the only route to go. Gnome and GTK look like crap out of the box and the rest of the WMs are either too minimalist and meant for power users (Fluxbox, Enlightenment, Sawfish, etc.) or just aren't pretty enough (Xfce).

I'm running Kubuntu right now. Works great out of the box. If you want a distribution that contrasts well with your Gentoo experience, try SuSe. It's very good at setting everything up for you.

I used Gentoo for a long time, but finally got fed up with the long compile times and the, "set everything up yourself" philosophy of the distribution. Setting up software myself was fascinating when I first started using linux, but now I know it's a mostly boring task of juggling a bunch of random text files in random locations with inconsistent syntax. Also worthy of note, with prelink enabled, I see no difference in performance between Gentoo and other distributions.

I tried SuSe after gentoo but got fed up with its package management, which just wasn't as easy as on Gentoo. Kubuntu's is better, but still not as good (or I haven't figured out how to use apt well enough yet, but it's just not as simple as the all in one tool: emerge). Package selection isn't as good either.

Argh, when will the distro makers learn that packaging is the giant enchilada holding them back? There should be a standard.

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

It's very good at setting everything up for you.

That's what i dislike - os doing something i don't know about. I realized it when i used to work with mandrake. When something broke i had no idea where to start. And usually i used ultimate-windows-fix-method : Reinstall from scratch :/

Everything looks awful out of the box, but if you give it some attention it starts to be cool after all. :]

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

I never knew how to put it into words, but Yoshi hit teh nail right on it's flat, slightly gripped head.

As for XFCE not being pretty enouygh, my XFCE desktop would be easier to use and make users more at home than KDE any day. Granted, kde has desktop icons, but uh, xfce is different. It does EVERYTHING I could have wanted my desktop to do. As for windows users using linux, I hope to god that doesn't happen. Linux deserves to remain reserved for power users, and gamers seeking an edge.

Lastly, I'm sorry to hear you were fascinated with config files. I never was, I was always diggin' the speed. My system can outperform yours any day. Prelink + reiser4 + well compiled apps - cruft beats your canned OS any day. Period, end of story. _AND_ I get a good package manager. That's what I'm here for, because I need teh ability to fsck with those config files, they make my experience more the way I want it. That's why I use linux, I get what i want. And that's half of gentoo's philosophy!

I should be ashamed of myself.

This post was edited by Aynjell on Jul 12, 2005.

That's what i dislike - os doing something i don't know about. I realized it when i used to work with mandrake. When something broke i had no idea where to start. And usually i used ultimate-windows-fix-method : Reinstall from scratch :/

I felt that way when I started to. What I liked about Gentoo was that it didn't really do anything for me without me telling it to, so I began to get an idea of where things came from on a linux system. But now that I've had that experience, I feel at home in other distrobutions.

As for XFCE not being pretty enouygh, my XFCE desktop would be easier to use and make users more at home than KDE any day. Granted, kde has desktop icons, but uh, xfce is different. It does EVERYTHING I could have wanted my desktop to do.

It's great that you think that. But you're not giving any reasons why. When I first came over from XP, KDE was the closest to what I knew, and it was the easiest to use. I tried Gnome, but it was missing obvious control panel options and didn't look as good. XFCE was decent, but just didn't end up being suited to my tastes, and still doesn't look as good as KDE. XFCE is GTK+ based. It has a nice GTK+ theme. But the QT toolkit at the moment is way ahead of GTK+ in the Not Looking Like Crap department. (definitely can change in the future though)

As for windows users using linux, I hope to god that doesn't happen. Linux deserves to remain reserved for power users, and gamers seeking an edge.

What did you use before Linux? OMGZORZ you were a winblowz user! LEAVE! If you're using a computer, and you're not using linux, you're using SOMETHING. New linux users have to come from somewhere.

And no, linux doesn't "deserve" to be reserved for "power users" and "gamers seeking an edge." The first is dumb because it's a Good Thing (TM) for computers to become easier to use -- that means more time spent doing what you want instead of tinkering (unless you want to tinker, but there's no threat of that ever going away on Linux).

As for "gamers seeking an edge," that's dumb because linux hardly plays any games. They're still all made for windows. The only "edge" you're going to get is the 5 fps drop from having to run Counterstrike under WINE. In order for there to be a market for Linux games big enough for people to start making Linux native games, those Windows gamers are going to have to convert over. BUT OMGZORZ THEYRE TEH WINBLOWZ UZERZ!

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

This post was edited by Tetrazome on Jul 12, 2005.

I felt that way when I started to. What I liked about Gentoo was that it didn't really do anything for me without me telling it to, so I began to get an idea of where things came from on a linux system. But now that I've had that experience, I feel at home in other distrobutions.

well i tried other distros. but i feel something is missing :] when i install kde, for example it installs tons of dependencies. and i can't do anything about it, except doing a manual compile. but that's what i had gentoo for, right? :D i just can't get accomodated to predefined dependencies anymore, and if my binary linux distro has to use from-source compilation, well, i'm going back to gentoo :D

As for XFCE not being pretty enouygh, my XFCE desktop would be easier to use and make users more at home than KDE any day. Granted, kde has desktop icons, but uh, xfce is different. It does EVERYTHING I could have wanted my desktop to do.

yeah xfce is fast and has all the necesary stuff. think about it - pretty desktop with low memory usage. a wonderful tradeoff for mind-blowing eye candy which does not perform to well on 256mb ram average cpu system.

some people just need their desktop to work. they want their office suite to launch quickly so they can get to work. from that point of view all those fireworks are really annoying. when you want to do somethnig quickly all this eye-candy becomes a nuisance.

When I first came over from XP, KDE was the closest to what I knew, and it was the easiest to use. I tried Gnome, but it was missing obvious control panel options and didn't look as good.

gnome and kde are both easy to use, they share the same features (like removable media management etc.)
gnome however is more lightweight - it works fine with 128mb system, whereas kde has trouble even at 256mb. that's because GTK/GTK2 is more lightweight library compared to Qt. most GTK/GTK2 programs take way less ram (maybe except firefox :D) than Qt ones. (i use an Qt-based IM program that eats away 122mb ram!)

Linux deserves to remain reserved for power users, and gamers seeking an edge.

it's all about choice in open source, remember? everyone should have a choice. people uncomfortable with linux should go for knoppix/mandriva/pclinuxOS or suse/xandros. intermediates - ubuntu,redhat,fedora,arch linux, etc . people ready for trouble - gentoo,debian,LFS,etc.

What did you use before Linux? OMGZORZ you were a winblowz user! LEAVE! If you're using a computer, and you're not using linux, you're using SOMETHING. New linux users have to come from somewhere.

that's the same with gentoo. most gentoo users are mandrake converts. how would you feel if someone would say: "ex-mandrakers not allowed! go fsck yourself." or if someone would make fun of you just because you use distribution X and not Y. ("you're so lame, because you don't use this and that. and on top of that you work on an stock kernel. bwahahaha! i use reiser4 and super-experimental cko-sources,sux0r!)"

linux should be a friendly world for newbies, just as gentoo forums,propably the friendliest community on The Net itself, are. if linux were so l33t we would not have too many users.

recently Eric Raymond, fetchmail author, and author of some great writings on open source ( http://www.catb.org/~esr/ ) totally bashed CUPS (linux printing system) authors for it being not too friendly to not-cups-guru users. he could not figure out how to setup a remote printer access via cups on his computer. it took him a few days to get things working.

he has a point there. if everything would be so d*mn unfriendly in linux, nobody would use it. because noone would know where to start. and newbies would soon give up.

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

This post was edited by yoshi314 on Jul 13, 2005.

What did you use before Linux? OMGZORZ you were a winblowz user! LEAVE! If you're using a computer, and you're not using linux, you're using SOMETHING. New linux users have to come from somewhere.

I'm talking about the mainstream. I'm talking about the userbase we'd gain if linux took over microsoft's place in the market. I'm talking about the people who "Only use a computer to check thier email". Those people who have no moral or intellectual interest in linux and open source technology. I'm talking about WINDOWS uses. Not people who have grown into linux, but hte people who couldn't figure out linux if it bit them in the butt. Those people who COULDN'T appreciate it. I'm talking about windows users.

And I agree, no peice of software should require you to be a guru to use it especially when it's not supposed to be highly technical, such as in teh cups arena.

Anyway, this is a difference in opinion: I don't think people who have no interest in not using windows or finding better software should be forced into using linux, because windows has it's place, and i am happy for that. I could explain that if you like.

I should be ashamed of myself.

This post was edited by Aynjell on Jul 13, 2005.

I'm talking about the mainstream. I'm talking about the userbase we'd gain if linux took over microsoft's place in the market. I'm talking about the people who "Only use a computer to check thier email". Those people who have no moral or intellectual interest in linux and open source technology. I'm talking about WINDOWS uses. Not people who have grown into linux, but hte people who couldn't figure out linux if it bit them in the butt. Those people who COULDN'T appreciate it. I'm talking about windows users.

I'd love it if these people would start using linux. Then they'd stop asking me to fix their computers and remove spyware :)

well i tried other distros. but i feel something is missing :] when i install kde, for example it installs tons of dependencies. and i can't do anything about it, except doing a manual compile. but that's what i had gentoo for, right? :D i just can't get accomodated to predefined dependencies anymore, and if my binary linux distro has to use from-source compilation, well, i'm going back to gentoo :D

I've noticed that too. QT4 is supposed to have a much smaller memory footprint though, so this may change. Also, gcc C compiling is much more developed, which benefits GTK. As G++ catches up KDE/QT could definitely gain the performance upperhand.

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

I don't really see why KDE is complained about. It's fast as far as I can tell, hell, I've seen machines that had to use a page file for half the memory usage of KDE and kde still ran flawlessly and at usable speeds (usable being fast enough that I didn't have to switch to fluxbox after 5 minutes).

KDE is fast, it works, and it's cheif offering is luxury. If you really wanna get the best of both worlds, try XFCE4. With the next release of XFCE, we'll have some VERY nice features, like icon view with xffm (which should increase usability, 10x if not more). As for gnome, well, as much as I hate to say it, it's a bloody mess. I don't know how it got so freakin' crazy, but everything that is gnome literally bugs the piss out of me. XFCE gives me the one thing GNOME does that I care about GTK.

Perhaps you are right when you say QT is better, and I'll never dispute that. NEVER. Because I couldn't say. But, I will dispute the applications. Every application I care to use is better in GTK.

Imaging: GIMP
Instant Mesaging: GAIM
IRC: X-Chat 2
Web Browsing: Mozilla Firefox
CD Burning: Graveman
Media Player: Beep Media Player
Peer To Peer: GTK-Gnutella and Bittorrent
GUI Portage Interface: Porthole

Granted, many of these have QT workalikes, but none of them are as well designed. The only QT irc client I know of sucks compared to X-Chat. As far as instant messaging, GAIM is the peak of usability. GIMP, well, when it's making some people save themselves the price of photoshop and paint shop, there's not much to argue. Is there even a decent imaging program with the QT toolkit?

I have to admit, though, I'd rather have GTK apps installed in a QT environment (KDE) than QT apps installed in a GTK environment. Since there are ways of skinning GTK apps to look "not-like-ass" in kde. Honestly? This shit needs to end. We need a single, usable and centralized toolkit, but there's a lot of projects that'd need to get revised to do that and some of them simply wouldn't happen.

If we were to go just off of applications and pick a toolkit and stick with it, it'd be GTK, I fear simply because of all teh applications offered. I do agree though, KDE is much more configurable, and I've always loved that, but it's so dayum buggy of late. XFCE is a little faster, more responsive and is clean. Perhaps you should see my desktop? Until they come out with more desklets for adesklets, it'll continue to look barren.

What do you guys think? If we were to have an app for app shootout to decide what toolkit stayed which would win? My money is on GTK, simply because when configured right, GTK looks so much slicker, and really, all the apps in GTK are better. Oh, and it's not so slow...

I don't get it, where is this QT slowness coming from? I never notice it.

I should be ashamed of myself.

I'd love it if these people would start using linux. Then they'd stop asking me to fix their computers and remove spyware :)

My reason for beleiving what I do is partly selfish:

If all the mainstream users came over to linux, sure we could use the mainstream attention, but then we get mainstream system compromises, spyware, and virii. We get mainstream digital rights management, and we get mainstream I can't do this or that bullshit. We get everything I absolutely hate about windows.

Windows has a purpose in my life, even though it's not on my computer. It is a wall, it protects me. With Windows Xp being the definitive OS for the mainstream, it gets all the really nasty viruses and all the retards that can't use computers.

The only good thing that'd come with mainstream attention is importance. We might be able to stop fearing software patents as much, or microsoft might start pushing harder for it... I still think linux should be reserved for those who care enough to appreciate it's true value.

Given my explanation, what do you think now?

I should be ashamed of myself.

Windows biggest vulnerability to virii is that it's a binary system with no variations, and one standard.

some linux distros are build from source, with totally weird compilation options (hi there, gentoo-ricers :D) so the binary file might change on nearly every PC. packages can have different levels of funcionality (enabling/disabling features at compilation time, compiling against different libraries) which varies them even more. and linux works on various platforms, which makes writing a universal linux virus VERY difficult task. you could go smart and write an interpreted script-virus. but you can't guarantee that every linux it comes across would have interpreter for that script installed :] also linux has very tight permission system, and overcoming them via some exploit is also very difficult, since security updates happen often.

every linux installation can be _totally_ different. windows installs are more uniform. some viruses/spyware on windows rely heavily on IE, even if you don't use it for browsing the 'net. they assume that you have IE somewhere on your HD. well they are usually right, since you have no choice in that matter (with standard, non-modded windows install :])

in linux script cannot even guarantee if it will be run on typical C libraries or not /propably the most important library in linux|unix systems/ . some system are statically linked with no glibc, some use uclibc, other dietlibc. there is no single part of gnu system that would be the same in most computers. you cannot bet that every user will use graphical display system. some computers run linux even without a graphic card, keyboard or monitor! (esp. some servers) and linux runs on different devices : PCs, PDAs, cellphones, DVD players (how would a virus end up there...? :D), car radios (and there...?:>), etc etc.

so it's generally difficult to find a big group of people using EXACTLY the same linux system. how can you make a single virus that would wreak havoc in such varied environment?

linux is still not ready for mainstream because it's not suited for typical user who has little knowledge on computers.
partitions, filesystems, kernel variations - this all is too "hardcore" for typical person who just wants to work happily on his computer without going to deep "under the hood". there are distros that improve the situation, like mandrake/suse/knoppix, but they also have issues :]

let's face it : believe it or not, there are actually people NOT interested in computers, but still using them for various simple things. they just use them for entertainment, not as their way of life.

i have a friend who just surfs the web, chats and listens to music on her PC, polishing her musical profile on audioscrobbler :] . she is NOT interested in technical details, because she has non-IT interests. (studying english and getting drunk often, to name the two :] )
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do you know how does your watch work? if you don't, does it prevent you from using it? that's what WE should realize.

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

I disagree with why linux is secure. Linux has a permissions system. Linux has limits on what non-root users can do. When you're on a normal desktop windows box, all users and applications have root privileges.

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

I disagree with why linux is secure. Linux has a permissions system. Linux has limits on what non-root users can do. When you're on a normal desktop windows box, all users and applications have root privileges

That is true, but we have less attacks and attempted virii due to our little shield. I guess both make life easier for me... Linux is eutopia, until the rest of the world joins me. Then it becomes the norm. :(

I should be ashamed of myself.

When you're on a normal desktop windows box, all users and applications have root privileges.

Not at all. Windows has a much more fine-grained permissions system than pretty much any Unix (especially considering that under most Linuxes it's just root/non-root and the ability to play with POSIX capabilities is pretty much ignored). Adding restricted users on an NT-based box (and enforcing those restrictions) is a piece of cake. Of course it's easy to be logged in as an administrator all of the time, but doing everyday work as root under Unix is just as easy.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

This post was edited by null on Jul 16, 2005.

some people just need their desktop to work. they want their office suite to launch quickly so they can get to work. from that point of view all those fireworks are really annoying. when you want to do somethnig quickly all this eye-candy becomes a nuisance.

This is silly, who *needs* their computer to just work, that'd be boring. The computer is a work of art that needs to be massaged, stroked, pushed, pulled and fondled. This is realized by the constant never ending love making known as tweaking and emerging the latest point releases of software from the abyss known as the open source community. The real epiphany comes when you finally achieve climactic orgasm when you realize that Gentoo is the mother of all Linux distributions.

pa..sha.. the computer just working... yeah right. wake up.

Yeah, I agree with majic here. Linux is awesome, and it brings out the joys of my computer. I love using linux for whatever reason. It's fun, and makes my system more responsive yada yada, who cares. I use it because shit works. I don't gotta pay 100 bucks to burn CD's and DVD's. I don't gotta pirate software to use my computer to the fullest... And I dont' have to put up with bugs. (granted skill limits me from correcting them, but right now we are talking about the moral part).

Linux is fun. Just using it is amazing. Then, when you start coding everything gets better. God I love how easy it is to start a programming project. Since the OS is basically a compiler with a kernel, writing software is a snap. I don't think it has to be easy, because it's a hacker's OS, and well, as far as that goes gentoo IS the hacker's distro. LFS is more hardcore, but hell, who uses that practically (it's goal is to teach users the ins and outs of linux)? Those that do get props, but gentoo is a VERY happy medium. As for SuSE, Red Hat, Fedora, Mandriva, and Linspire? They have thier place... And all of them for me are similar to windows. They aren't on my machine but I gain by thier existence.

I should be ashamed of myself.

This post was edited by Aynjell on Jul 14, 2005.

This is silly, who *needs* their computer to just work, that'd be boring. The computer is a work of art that needs to be massaged, stroked, pushed, pulled and fondled. This is realized by the constant never ending love making known as tweaking and emerging the latest point releases of software from the abyss known as the open source community. The real epiphany comes when you finally achieve climactic orgasm when you realize that Gentoo is the mother of all Linux distributions.

pa..sha.. the computer just working... yeah right. wake up.

seems like you totally missed my point. that's fully normal - since we're mostly geeks here ;) /can't talk for myself, though/ . you need to realize there ARE some people don't have such big interest for computers. they watch movies once in a while, reply to mails, use them for office work, listen to music. they do simple things. they are NOT interested in the "complicated stuff". they rely on others to take care of that. they are NOT interested HOW it works, and they don't care.

everyone abides to the laws of physics, but not everyone cares about them.

how do i put this....computers are to serve people. it's NOT supposed to be the other way around.
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and mind you, it's actually LFS that is the mother of all distributions - every distribution starts from another distribution, or gets created from scratch. and first linux system was built, well, from scratch.

you could say that Minix was the ancestor of linux, since that's what Linus was writing first linux kernels on. /i'm not taking the gnu toolkit into account here. don't know what they were working on/

besides - LFS is not a distribution but rather a bunch of guidelines and pointers to make your linux system with no deps management, from source. you don't have to stick to guidelines, you can always try to do some experiments on your own /that's CLEARLY stated in the book/. so even at installation level every LFS can be different. and i'm not talking about simple compile optimizations. you can seriously break dependencies, do crazy things with the thing. as long as it still compiles, you're good :]

so LFS is just a bunch of suggestions about what you should do to create a linux system. you don't have to follow them if you want - as they stated, some folks created a web server box that sticks into 8mb using LFS methods :|

but you still need another linux system to make it, though. so there.
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gentoo is something else. it's a from-source _distribution_ that comes with installer that manages dependencies. and it also was created under other linux system, that existed _before_ gentoo.

i'd straighten this up - The real epiphany comes when you finally achieve climactic orgasm when you realize that Gentoo is the most versatile distribution. /remeber, i don't count LFS as a distro. besides it's not too comfortable to use. gentoo is a good versatile-usable tradeoff/.

I agree with majic here. I love using linux for whatever reason. It's fun, and makes my system more responsive yada yada, who cares. I use it because shit works.

however it seems like he does not agree with you :/

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

This post was edited by yoshi314 on Jul 14, 2005.

seems like you totally missed my point. that's fully normal - since we're mostly geeks here ;)

Truthfully I didn't read the full thread. I was just injecting my unrational bias into the thread. I had no intention of actually speaking sensibly on the topic at hand. Sorry, it's more fun to just step up and spew speculative bullshit rather than inject inciteful well thought out discourse.

=)

This post was edited by majic on Jul 14, 2005.

That's majic, always lovable. :)

I should be ashamed of myself.

I know, i know. That's what we like you for, don't we :>

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

Truthfully I didn't read the full thread. I was just injecting my unrational bias into the thread. I had no intention of actually speaking sensibly on the topic at hand. Sorry, it's more fun to just step up and spew speculative bullshit rather than inject inciteful well thought out discourse.

You are my hero.

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

Okay. I'll say it. You are inspiring. I've had way more luck with handling fiery situations better as of late, but during the most recent week, I have found my ability to be lovable quite lacking. Reading your quote made me smile so broad, majic.

It just keeps reminding me that if one person injects humor, generally everyone lays down their swords. Now, if I can just learn how to deal with people who really, really want to manipulate you. Unlike this discussion. You guys just sound like you are all very cool people with different opinions. I feel like there is hope for the flowers.

As for the topic at hand, I know positively nothing about Linux. And it will probably stay that way...though, I am in awe of those who 'get' all that stuff.

If mountain goats like living at high elevations, why do none live in high rise apartment buildings?