Reading Philosophy

You drive by a garage sale in a neighborhood that is a bit poorer than your own. You see a vintage end chair you've been wanting for a long time. So you stop.

They're selling the chair for only ten dollars, and there's have a sign:

"All items sold as is.
All sales final."

So you inspect your dream chair. Upon inspection you find a one hundred dollar bill in a crack under the seat cushion. It is slightly discolored and has defintly been there for a while. You quickly put the cushion back down.

Looking at the family, you can tell they could use the money more than you. But who cares. They'd never miss it. And someone else who is less observant will probably buy it later anyway.

Do you tell the garage salers? Do you buy the chair at all?

We have a good idea what the utilitarian would do in this position. What the ethical person do?

Please contiune to vote AND post.

I think this sort of dilemma is most interesting because no one's benefit except your own is at stake.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Well this is a bit like Martin's dilemma with deciding to move out or not. If you guys don't remember, I'll refresh your memory.

Martin was thinking he was going to move, and so his apartment would have been free. His neighbor is having another child and needs some more room, so they wanted to buy his apartment after he left and knock down the walls.

Martin agreed that he would give over his apartment to them, seeing how it wouldn't really matter since he was leaving. Suddenly, his reason for moving was abruptly dismissed. He considered finding another apartment, but he realized what a great place he had himself. It was close to everything he could need in the city, and the cost of the rent was phenomenal.

What was he to do? Keep his promise or go back on his word and keep the apartment? Martin in the end kept his apartment, and his neighbor and him still are on harsh terms in fact.

I think ethical is just another way of saying "socially acceptable." And, of course, in the scenario you gave, it is socially unacceptable behavior to buy that chair. Though, is it right or wrong? Who is the real judge of that? Society? I don't think so.

Imagine for a second that there is some sort of true compass which can judge something right or wrong, black or white. It may seem gray to many, but to this compass, it is always either right or wrong.

Now using this true compass, there may be some interlay between true right and wrong and society's right and wrong, which means if it is ethically incorrect, it isn't necessarily wrong, nor is it necessarily right.

Wrong for you? Yes, you definitely know it is wrong.
Wrong for society? Yes, it is socially unethical behavior.
Wrong for god (or this compass)? It is left undecided. We will never know.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

The analogy of a compass is dead on. Magnetic North is not the same as geographic North. Miles actually separate them.
The same can hold true for our geographic morality--that imposed by institutions such as Church--matching the actual self-imposed magnetic morality of our true life experiences.

Don't we all do things that challenge our morality codes? We say it's wrong to lie, but yet everyone that I know of lies, and not just to me. Some are big, some small. Even just telling someone the wrong time of our expected arrival, or departure.
But there's a good reason for it, isn't there? We're giving ourself a "safety cushion." Or when a woman tells a creep at the bar that she's "with someone," do we say, wow she's go no morals cause she's telling a white lie?

I see that all people have a morality code. Even the worst, hardened criminal has a morality code. I can personally tell you that. To me, morality is simply those things that a person won't do because she just doesn't think that it's "right," "good," or even expedient.

Sometimes the morality, or ethics is that you want to do something, because you know it is the right thing to do, but situational ethics give one pause to do a different thing. The case of one witnessing a crime, or violation of the rules. Like someone getting assaulted or starting arson, or even a cop getting hit, this thing may be a truly bad thing. Our conscience tells us to act.
One might want to tell the proper authorities, but the situational ethics imposed by confinement, or fear of a crazed lunitic brandishing a large weapon, will cause an otherwise good person to dummy-up.

It's embarrasing to Martin, but it's not unethical. I think it would be unethical for the neighbors to cause him to live out on the street.

I'll bet that just took 5 years off my life--but GODDAMM if it wasn't worth every second

This post was edited by zen on Aug 07, 2005.

Do you tell the garage salers? Do you buy the chair at all?
We have a good idea what the utilitarian would do in this position. What the ethical person do?

Hi, soory, the post accidentally sent prematurely, and since I haven't been here for a while, I lost my ability to post more than once a day, and it wouldn't let me edit it.

Like....but you really didn't have to, like, rate it, like, right away, (OH MY AN UNFINISHED POST WELL LET ME RATE IT QUICK AS POSSIBLE SO I CAN GET AS HIGH A RANK AS POSSIBLE FOR MYSELF!!!!)......... haha seriously. but if I knew that you guys really didn't know that i realized I did something wrong, and that i probobly couldnt edit it ((IF YOU HAD SEEN MY STAR))...well then i forgive u, k?

What i wanted to say was that the "right" thing to do is to pay for the chair with the hundred dollars, and give them half, or the whole thing, I dunno. But why would you have to leave it their? You said yourself that it was your dream chair, and you seem unfrugal about your money, so just do what feels right I guess. Yeah......

Crap, I didn't mean "you seem UNfrugal about your money"---
I meant to say that you seem to be careful about your money, as you inspected the chair before buying it. Oops :-(

PS thanks to anyone who gave me an good rating that I might not have neccesarily deserved on my last post, the one that I complained in :-P

I love you guys.

<3 jess

I would try speaking with the people first. If they are nice, I'll give them the money.

It sounds wierd, but the more I think about it, that's pretty much what I would do. I mean, I don't want to pay some asshole $100 that I found fair and square. But if they are cool, nice people, then I don't want to cheat them, and I'd feel better being honest.

But I can't find no place or nothin', where thrills are cheap, and love is divine

So, here with our chair, I can also give some real life experience. Supposing that that chair is a chest of drawers. The dollar bill is actually photos (and maybe some money too). The lady selling the stuff looks through the drawers, and gives it a clean bill of health--all her father's personal stuff was removed, or so she thought.

One might be inclined to say, well, she didn't notice anything, so I'm in the clear, but there's still an obligation. Fact is, it's all mine now. Buying from an estate sale, a yard sale, an auction, or out of some old man's guest house/studio; they are sold AS IS, all sales are final. Inspect before you buy--that sword cuts both ways. This includes anything found within the cushions.

If the issue is purely money, I easily say to myself noone needs this more than I do. I do alot of wonderful, good things for people and don't get paid for doing them. I never ask for anything in return. I firmly believe that those little "finds", those free tokens are the good graces of the universe, and Divine Intellegence giving me what is due me; karmically as it were.

But, if the issue isn't money, but property in general, such as photos, personal mementos, I am inclined to give them back. Usually, that's what we do with those things. Especially, if this is a customer, or friend, or even just someone with local ties, we'll keep those things separate from the regular merchandise, and if we can get hold of the person, we'll let them know we have the thing(s).

Naturally this leads us to that grey area. There are those areas controlled by the fuzzy logic of the Universe. Back at our example, of the chest. I posted this story in my journal, back on Tue Feb 24, 2004, 4:30 AM in my deviantart.com journal
Professor M).

I knew going into this studio cleaning job that this was a high school teacher, now in hospice care, who had, we'll say, intimate dealings with his students inside that studio.
The first man, a local dealer, got the call from these folks. He's a business associate of my father's. The first guy looked through the studio, and since it was mostly old wooden antique furniture, our company's forte, he called us to get a better handle on what was salable.

So this first man grabbed all the photo albums, and pictures. He then promptly sold them. These are, again pictures of M.'s students. This first man isn't looking through the photos cause he's into that kind of crap, but decause he wants to see if it's anyone that he could recognise. These would all be local people.
Here's another ethical debate, springing from the first. Does this first man tell M.'s daughter about those pictures? First man is making a killing on those dirty, and yet questionably-legal photos; does he give any of it to the family? Should he; or more appropriately, should he have to?
The daughter was standing there the whole time. He bargained with her for the amount of that first lot; there were all sorts of paperwork kinda stuff. Somehow they slipped through the cracks. Assumedly the daughter didn't know about them, or she'd have burned them.

At the studio, before taking it away, we looked through all the furniture before removing them. In this chest of drawers was a few drawers with alot of art supplies, pencils, pens, paints, brushes. Some paperwork, no money. And 6 negatives of naked "men". I assume they're men cause they all look to be about 18. I put those in my pockets. I never told her about them.
There is absolutely no moral qualm that I did the right thing.

Here's someone who definitely needs the money we paid for here furniture. I bought the chest, with everything in it. She could see all the art supplies as she went through the drawers. But, heck, porno stuff is always extra.
So, here's a side scenerio, let's say I leave the photos in there, or there's one in there that I don't see. It's a picture of her brother, or a neighbor, or one of her classmates. I've in essence brought this to her. She NEVER would have gone in that nasty, dirty, rat-infested, decrepid, pit of a studio. No one goes into places like that unless they're getting money.
So she finds something that's very troubling to her. Wouldn't I have some ethical, or moral responsibility? Good, decent people should not be subjected to those kinds of traumatic things.

Do I buy the chair? Yes. I give them the hundred I found in payment of the chair. I probably wouldn't even dicker about the price--hell, I just made $90. The chair itself is probably worth two bills easy. So off that little venture, I just made $290. Not bad for one morning.

This is assuming that the bill wasn't something like a silver certificate, or some such. In that case I'd keep that, give her the 10 from my pocket, and I've just made more.

But then again, you did say "dream chair." That assumes that you'll be keeping the chair. You could frame the hundred dollar bill, and keep it as a conversation piece. Gives you something to talk about as you're enjoying your new chair.

I'll bet that just took 5 years off my life--but GODDAMM if it wasn't worth every second

This post was edited by zen on Aug 07, 2005.

Buy the chair, give 'em the hundred. Normally I'm rather selfish, but I can't imagine not doing the right thing in this situation. Besides, exactly one hundred dollars is impossible to spend, I'm too OCD to break an even number like that.

Thbbbbt

Besides, exactly one hundred dollars is impossible to spend, I'm too OCD to break an even number like that.

*lol* Yeah, Magnifico, I just had to laugh wholeheartedly at that one. I too, fight that OCD thing. I think, that since my apartment has been almost an utter mess for more than a year, I've managed to stave off some of the OCD behaviour...but I never was able to break the $100 bill a certain someone sent me in the mail. It remains on my fridge, as a sort of magical talisman for more money. I look at it, and know that if it ever hits rock bottom...that money is there. Until I can give it back, in person, preferrably...or use it for a 'wedding gift'.

And I suppose, I'd probably give the money to the sellers in the scenario in question. If past history is any experience. When I found that the teller at the bank overdeposited $100, I informed her of the fact...even though she was a bit bitchy. I didn't want it to fuck up her teller standards. Although, I suppose that they would have found it eventually...

Now, at work, when I find money lying around, I ask first. I go around, ask people if they are missing money. If no one can tell me the exact amount, and they should be able to, entertainers do keep track of that stuff...then I've kept it. If they say: "Yeah, I lost a $50 on stage somewhere." Then I know it's theirs and give it back.

When it comes to credit card companies, and institutions which prey upon your hard earned cash when times have been hard for you by giving you exhorbitant interest rates...well, if they ever 'accidentally' padded my account, I wouldn't say a damn thing. So, I guess I care about individuals, and not institutions.

With the chair, in all honesty, I'd probably wrestle with myself for a good long minute. I'd probably end up giving it to them though... selfishly, I'd enjoy the appreciative look on their faces. But I'd be peeved if they insisted on making me pay for the chair. :-)

If mountain goats like living at high elevations, why do none live in high rise apartment buildings?

I would give them the cash i found and pay for the chair, unless i would find in the meantime that they are a bunch of assholes.

and i would tell/remind the neighbor that i would move out IF i would find a new apartament for myself. duh. as simple as it gets :D

Now, at work, when I find money lying around, I ask first. I go around, ask people if they are missing money. If no one can tell me the exact amount, and they should be able to, entertainers do keep track of that stuff...then I've kept it. If they say: "Yeah, I lost a $50 on stage somewhere." Then I know it's theirs and give it back.

yup, same here.

but some people do not know how much do they have. and they cannot figure out how much they lost. like me. i realized that in a pretty unpleasant circumstances (got mugged and beat up).

no matter how hard i try i simply cannot keep track of my money. i mean it's not that i spend too much - i always have some cash handy, but i just cannot remember how much exactly.

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."