Reading Poetry

Have you even read a single poem that she's referring to? I don't care if you call it art.

Methinks thou must have forgotten reading the very first paragraph of lemon's nee MelMel's post.

I have read a lot of the so-called poetry in this forum. i am well aware that it is becoming an issue, particularly with users posting multiple poems a day that are essentially badly constructed sentences with "enter" pressed too many times...however,

I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just pointing out that it is sometimes helpful to reread. MelMel and I both know what has been going on with the poetry forum, and I, for one, having helped to get this Poetry Forum started back at the end of last year, wonder if am in a unique position to suggest that the Forum just go the way of all flesh? I know that I am sick of it. And I never thought I'd say that. I love poetry so much.

But I am tired of fighting for it. I didn't spend countless hours on the NAO last fall committing my heart to these hallowed halls to have people write the crap I have seen, nor for people not to notice the irony when I place poetry here that is not up to my level to prove a point. Nor for people to randomly dismiss anyone's nonsensical poems, with the exception being stuff that is just obviously filth.

But then, ah, I guess, I myself am being rather biased.

This forum has become a Wasteland nothing like T.S. Eliot's poem, but a wasteland nonetheless.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Jun 22, 2005.

Erm... Sorry about that. Haha. It was early in the morning (early being like 4 AM) and I tend to do dumb stuff like that. I'm sorry.

Breathe.

Okay, I haven't dropped an opinion in this forum in along time (that is if I've ever said anything about it at all). However, I think now is the time.

To begin with, this conversation has gone beyond a debate about what is and isn't bad poetry. It's turned into yet another arguement on par with the Rating Complaints. It's also safe to say that in my opinion it's a bit out of proportion. And to me, one of the main reasons that the poetry threads often go unread is that alot of people here aren't into poetry all that much to begin with, and when they attempt to get into the groove, so to speak, and all they find is the sort of thing that Stoic was talking about to begin with.

Speaking from the point of view of a person that a) doesn't know alot about poetry, and b) feels a bit turned off by not being able to read and understand something that come to find out offends/annoys people who are heavily into poetry, it's pretty difficult to come in and see this argument as something that's forum shattering or to feel bad about ignoring the really good stuff that is quite litterally burried in this forum. Also, responses to poetry probably aren't that high because from my own observations I've seen that most of the site users are more into the computer forums or into politics. So naturally it's going to seem like poetry is completely ignored.

Sure, this may also come off as being part of the egotistical elietest clique type of thing people are talking about, and for that I appologize. I like to think of myself as anything but. However, the techie political part of the community isn't exactly getting brought up as a reason for low poetry response. As for ratings?

The ratings are drawn off of people's opinions. Not everyone has to think something is great, or understand it, or even want to voice their thoughts at all. And of course it should be kept in mind that you don't have to put stalk into what other people think. Especially if you are writing for you. And to me, a poetry whimp, that is the only reason to write a poem: your own personal expression.

--Jami

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

I also see nothing worth having in that poem, but hey, that's all the craze these days: Crap that never makes sense, stuff that's meant to be abstract for the sake of being abstract in an abstract way. Fucking EMO music. :(

I should be ashamed of myself.

Oh I love you much too much
Slow-talking pain
comes on like a rolling grub,
Smothers like a snail's foot
Would a tiny lady bug,
Robs my yellow garden bright
Of it's spring-time sunshine breath
Hairy stalk, pod, bud, seed, bead
Loving bee, gnome, elf, self: Death.

Does this make any sense to you? And do you know who it is by?

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

I have an agenda. To get people to treat the poetry forum with respect, and to use it to better their own and others knowledge. Logical thinking isn't the only kind of intelligence. It is important to note that this kind of discussion is EXACTLY the kind of discussion that should be happening in the poetry forum.

Let me enumerate my points in a more logical way:

1) The poetry forum is valid, even if only a few of us want it. Just because the majority of people here are techies, doesn't make majority rule fair or right.

2) There should be more written on a forum for poetry than just everyone's personal little poems. This forum is too insular. We shouldn't just be talking about our own poetry, although that is valid as well; yet, people focus on individual poems on this forum, and not on the intellectual discussion of poetry as a valid art form in and of itself...as well.

3) People don't put up mini movies in the movie forum, or write books in the book forum, and if they did, we'd probably all feel the same way about those forums that the majority seems to feel about this one.

4) In short, the forum is being misused and abused. It is not being diverted towards its true potential. And it sickens me.

Jami, I like you, I consider you my friend...but if you truly want to understand what some of the poetry that I and others have found offensive means, the only way to do that is to read a lot of 'good' poetry. That's what I did. I used to sit and think it was utterly confusing bullshit. But hey, if that ain't your gig...so be it. I occasionally mention on here that I don't understand the computer lingo, and am in awe of those who do. I don't generally tend to offer my commentary on those subjects, because I feel out of my element. But poetry is my element, and it is the element of a few of us here. Enough of us to have had our own little subgrouping for a while. That subgroup is the group of people abusing this forum. You aren't abusing it. It just isn't your forum. No one was attacking you for not reading.

Just bear in mind that some of the crap poetry that was written in recent months, actually was written as a stab at me. Not all of it. But some of it. It isn't egotistical on my part. I know who was doing it, and I know what they meant. Their intention at the time, was to reach me on a very deeply poetic, intellectual level; while simultaneously making it likely that if I voiced an opinion about what was happening to the rest of you, I would look crazy. Hey. None of you have to understand, really. But you could try... that would be nice. :/ Part of my previous post was trying to convey the Murakamiesque nature of saying: "I'm sorry my stalker zapped this forum because he knew it would hurt me. And I'm sorry that other people followed suit from his example." But there was so much more...

So much more...

Obviously, the argument about the misuse of the poetry forum isn't forum-shattering to you, or to the 'majority' on the NAO, because it is apparent that this forum is not high on most NAOees priority list. This is not news to me. That's fine.

As far as responses to poetry 'probably not being that high'... I beg to differ. As I said. When I came here, that is primarily what I posted. Poetry. Several people came to me telling me how much they enjoyed my poetry. It was qualitative, not quantitative. They don't anymore. And yes. It hurt my feelings. I'm human. So sue me. Should I be perfect? I hope not, cause I'm not. But my personal feelings weren't my core discussion before, nor are they now. I ask the question: Where in my previous post did you miss the links that were predominantly for posts that had NOTHING to do with my writing, but with the art of other's poetry, and poetry in general? I end my post by admitting my own petty weaknesses, and the train of thought stops there?

But you miss the main point in my previous post waaay beyond the petty personal crap I voiced. There are other posts on this poetry forum, by myself and OTHER people that don't pertain to the misconception that a poetry forum on a site such as the NAO should be reduced to nothing but a place to showcase your own shit.

Yes, this thread has bloomed into other things than the discussion of simply poetry. But everything is more interconnected than we would all like to think. And part of that interconnection is the loss of a really cool member like MelMel because she thinks we all don't listen. And judging from her experiment... We don't. This is a macrocosm which has a distinct effect on the microcosmic events that occur inside the sacred little threads of the so-called hallowed, and unfortunately, rigidly compartmentalized halls of the NAO. I sympathize with MelMel. I see her point. I see what she means about being creatively stifled. But telling me that if I don't like what is going on means that I don't have to post, is begging the question. Unless I misunderstood you. Which I may very well have. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Please understand, I left the NAO before because of idiocy, then I left it again out of fear of my stalker. I came back because I genuinely like this place, but that doesn't mean I have to like all of it. If you'll notice, I pretty much stay away from the poetry forum myself these days... If I was really egotistical, wouldn't I likely be bombarding that forum with all kinds of crap? All of the time?

And of course it should be kept in mind that you don't have to put stalk into what other people think. Especially if you are writing for you. And to me, a poetry wimp, that is the only reason to write a poem: your own personal expression.

There are other reasons to write a poem. One might be to simply share the power of your own words with others. And to inspire. Or just to have some freaking fun. There are also reasons to post posts in the poetry forum about other people's writing. To a) make it not such an egotistical, me-centered forum, and b) to broaden people's minds.

Of course, since I don't care to share my current poetry, I suppose I could go so far as to not care that people are STILL abusing the forum, and that everyone involved complains about how this forum seems like nothing but a showcase for mediocre work, but doesn't make much of an effort to read posts about poets and writers who have the stamp of the common approval that generally makes it easier for most people to treat as valid[/variation on MelMel's theme - in other words... people who are known]. By that I mean, posts ABOUT poets other than oneself. Posts about the validity of writing poetry, which this one is...

Hey, do people write their own books in the book forum? NO. Or rarely. So why can't they write about poets they like besides themselves here? Or participate in group efforts of writing like that one Disposable Fishspastic started? Goofy, funny, but loads of fun to participate in, and that's what creative writing is about, and creative writing is what poetry is at its core. But hey, what do I know. I know that simply making mention of my own personal ego problems with the 'current' reception of my poetry clouds the other issues I mentioned in my previous post, and the issues that Stoic Slaughter mentioned. And the issues that MelMel mentioned. Which were way more important. And which I also devoted a fair amount of my discussion to...

I hope that you weren't expecting me to sugarcoat how I feel if you respond to me on a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I'm not striking you down. I am debating with you, and refuting the claims you make which I think are erroneous. The same as you have done with me. So I ask you, in responding this way to the thread do I seem like I care? About myself? About how other people feel? About what this place means to ALL of us, and not just the 'majority' of the techies? Should I not care? I can't decide. Is that bad of me to be riding the fence? Does ambivalence and petty frustration make me a bad person? No. It just makes me someone you can't put on a pedestal. I don't want to be on one anyway.

Give me one good reason why I shouldn't care about something I love, and about people I love. Especially when they aren't listening to each other. If the techies want to exercise their majority vote, should the poets bow out?

And in summary and repeated reiteration of everything I have said, isn't this kind of discussion EXACTLY one of the many, many things that should be happening on a forum about poetry? Shouldn't it be discussed the way books are discussed? As well as posting one's own poems? How many people on the 'book forum' post their finished or unfinished novels, novellas, short stories and critical writing? And wouldn't you be disillusioned if say, you had pushed for a forum on books, while living in a world parallel to the movie based on Ray Bradbury's book: Fahrenheit 451, where people put no store behind books? Are you only reiterating what some people continue to say, that poetry isn't valid because you don't understand it? What if I said computer language isn't valid because I don't understand it. I'd be wrong. Wouldn't I.

And if people did nothing on the forums devoted to computer technology but post their breakthroughs and ask for compliments, wouldn't it be irritating too? Why do you think I don't want to post poems anymore? Really? I hope you don't take my frustration personally Jami, because it isn't personal. It's just that a can of worms is being dug deeper and deeper into, and it needs to be, if this forum is to survive. You give me the opportunity to soapbox about a topic I love that I see deteriorating here, and I will take it. I will attempt to make my point.

I thought that my point was that this forum should be about more than a bunch of poets primping and preening about their own lovely poems, and that that is partly why I began to post critiques of other writers, and discussions of poetry in general. I tried to set the tone. It didn't help. Everyone, including myself, was clamoring for their 15 minutes of fame. I found it ugly. I was disappointed in myself and in others, and still am.

That certainly doesn't mean that hope is gone, it just looks like a tiny pinpoint in the midst of a bunch of blackness.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Jun 23, 2005.

1) The poetry forum is valid, even if only a few of us want it. Just because the majority of people here are techies, doesn't make majority rule fair or right.

2) There should be more written on a forum for poetry than just everyone's personal little poems. This forum is too insular. We shouldn't just be talking about our own poetry, although that is valid as well; yet, people focus on individual poems on this forum, and not on the intellectual discussion of poetry as a valid art form in and of itself...as well.

3) People don't put up mini movies in the movie forum, or write books in the book forum, and if they did, we'd probably all feel the same way about those forums that the majority seems to feel about this one.

4) In short, the forum is being misused and abused. It is not being diverted towards its true potential. And it sickens me.

If it sounded like I wanted the poetry forum to get kicked, then for that I appologize, because i don't. However, I could probably get into more discussions on other poets. Though, when it comes to well known published poets it seems to me like it would fit into the book forum, due to the fact that what's being discussed is a published work. And you're right on point three, everyone else would get just as annoyed at the book and movie forum.

However, I think there is a rather large misconception of what the poetry forum should be for. Now that I think about it, it seems like people who see "poetry" on a forum label automatically assume it means "post my too spaced out incomplete sentances here" forum. Instead of using it like the books or movies forum.

Jami, I like you, I consider you my friend...but if you truly want to understand what some of the poetry that I and others have found offensive means, the only way to do that is to read a lot of 'good' poetry. That's what I did. I used to sit and think it was utterly confusing bullshit. But hey, if that ain't your gig...so be it. I occasionally mention on here that I don't understand the computer lingo, and am in awe of those who do. I don't generally tend to offer my commentary on those subjects, because I feel out of my element. But poetry is my element, and it is the element of a few of us here. Enough of us to have had our own little subgrouping for a while. That subgroup is the group of people abusing this forum. You aren't abusing it. It just isn't your forum. No one was attacking you for not reading.

I don't feel attacked, per se, I just noticed that in the conversation there was a group of people not being represented when the conversation turned to the ratings part of posting in the poetry form. However, I don't agree with the logic of "if the majority doesn't like/understand it" than it doesn't have a place on the site. The only reason that I could see getting rid of the forum all together would be if there were 0 posts in it for at least 1 year. I too consider you a friend, Rosy, as well as one of the most intellegent people I know. As for lingo understanding being equated with not posting, I htink the same applies to the non-poetry understanding/liking users on the site.

Just bear in mind that some of the crap poetry that was written in recent months, actually was written as a stab at me. Not all of it. But some of it. It isn't egotistical on my part. I know who was doing it, and I know what they meant. Their intention at the time, was to reach me on a very deeply poetic, intellectual level; while simultaneously making it likely that if I voiced an opinion about what was happening to the rest of you, I would look crazy. Hey. None of you have to understand, really. But you could try... that would be nice. :/ Part of my previous post was trying to convey the Murakamiesque nature of saying: "I'm sorry my stalker zapped this forum because he knew it would hurt me. And I'm sorry that other people followed suit from his example." But there was so much more...

I really don't know what to say to this. I take you quite seriously when you mention that it's a stalker giving you problems, and for that I can do nothing more than offer empathy and an email address to rant to.

Where in my previous post did you miss the links that were predominantly for posts that had NOTHING to do with my writing, but with the art of other's poetry, and poetry in general? I end my post by admitting my own petty weaknesses, and the train of thought stops there?

You're links weren't missed, however they're a handful of over three hundred posts that have been put in the thread with little or no commenting. And when it comes to admitting weakness, I think it's something most of us have done in posts on a plethora of topics. And it doesn't go at all unnoticed. That and I didn't at the time think my opinion was at all relative to the admittance, and in all honesty got added to the end of yours because it didn't seem all that orderly to tack it onto the parent post in the thread, due to the tangent that had been forming in the posts before I read the thread. Likely a tactical/placement error on my part.

But everything is more interconnected than we would all like to think. And part of that interconnection is the loss of a really cool member like MelMel because she thinks we all don't listen. And judging from her experiment... We don't. This is a macrocosm which has a distinct effect on the microcosmic events that occur inside the sacred little threads of the so-called hallowed, and unfortunately, rigidly compartmentalized halls of the NAO. I sympathize with MelMel. I see her point. I see what she means about being creatively stifled. But telling me that if I don't like what is going on means that I don't have to post, is begging the question. Unless I misunderstood you. Which I may very well have. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

MelMel/lemon's point didn't get missed. However, I think there's been a missunderstanding on the part about not liking what's being said doesn't mean you have to post. What I was trying to get across is that certain things should be taken with a grain of salt, such as a rating. Besides, it takes two people to miscommunicate: one to do the talking and one to not understand what's being said. So in all likeliness I probably wasn't being very clear in what I was attempting to say.

By that I mean, posts ABOUT poets other than oneself. Posts about the validity of writing poetry, which this one is...

This is off topic, but I find it interesting that alot of the authors of the poetry being discussed/ranted about in this forum have yet to contribute to the debate. Sorry for my distraction.

Though, on the subject of writing poetry, thing things that I've read and considered good in my lack of knowledge, and limited readings seem to be written more for expression of ones own feelings as opposed to being written for the soul purpose of inspiring others to do something, or to kick back and have a good time.

I hope that you weren't expecting me to sugarcoat how I feel if you respond to me on a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I'm not striking you down. I am debating with you, and refuting the claims you make which I think are erroneous. The same as you have done with me. So I ask you, in responding this way to the thread do I seem like I care? About myself? About how other people feel? About what this place means to ALL of us, and not just the 'majority' of the techies? Should I not care? I can't decide. Is that bad of me to be riding the fence? Does ambivalence and petty frustration make me a bad person? No. It just makes me someone you can't put on a pedestal. I don't want to be on one anyway.

I'm actually quite glad you didn't sugarcoat it. I wasn't expecting you too, and it seems to take away from what is being said when attempts to do so by anyone discussing anything do it. Not to mention it gives me a chance to reflect on what I've said and see where I find myself in error or where I think I said something right and take up its defense. You do sound like you care, more for the forum and it's standing than you do about your personal problems. Granted, I'd likely put myself before a forum anyday, but that just makes me selfish. (*shrug*) Pedastals are over rated in any case. Granted, if we were going by my standards of what makes some one idol worthy, blunt honesty is one of them.

Give me one good reason why I shouldn't care about something I love, and about people I love. Especially when they aren't listening to each other. If the techies want to exercise their majority vote, should the poets bow out?

There isn't any good reason not to. However, I don't feel that the debate has come to the point of voiting as to whether or not to get rid of the forum. Though, I would like to agree with null's suggestion that access to it be restricted slightly, to avoid some of the things that stoic was talking about to begin with.

And in summary and repeated reiteration of everything I have said, isn't this kind of discussion EXACTLY one of the many, many things that should be happening on a forum about poetry? Shouldn't it be discussed the way books are discussed? As well as posting one's own poems? How many people on the 'book forum' post their finished or unfinished novels, novellas, short stories and critical writing? And wouldn't you be disillusioned if say, you had pushed for a forum on books, while living in a world parallel to the movie based on Ray Bradbury's book: Fahrenheit 451, where people put no store behind books? Are you only reiterating what some people continue to say, that poetry isn't valid because you don't understand it? What if I said computer language isn't valid because I don't understand it. I'd be wrong. Wouldn't I.

I really couldn't think of very many people that have posted their own personal works to the books forum. Granted, I haven't read all that many back logs to the books forum either. This is one of the discussions that should be happening here, though I still think alot of it had turned to the same mush that the Ratings Complaint board was created for. That, and I don't think I ever said that the board/catagory/pick-a-name didn't need to exist because it isn't nessicarily understood by everyone. And if it sounded like I did, then I seriously needed to read over what I had written before clicking the "Post" button.

And if people did nothing on the forums devoted to computer technology but post their breakthroughs and ask for compliments, wouldn't it be irritating too? Why do you think I don't want to post poems anymore? Really? I hope you don't take my frustration personally Jami, because it isn't personal. It's just that a can of worms is being dug deeper and deeper into, and it needs to be, if this forum is to survive. You give me the opportunity to soapbox about a topic I love that I see deteriorating here, and I will take it. I will attempt to make my point.

You're right it would be irritating. Just as people constantly posting trying to get help with their homework was irritating, which I would think is somewhere on the level of spamming the poetry board with crappy poorly thought out poems. And no, I don't take this personally at all, Rosy. It'd be really silly too, especially knowing that the entire conversation, from post 1 began because someone got frustrated.

That certainly doesn't mean that hope is gone, it just looks like a tiny pinpoint in the midst of a bunch of blackness.

Or, in a more pessimistic frame of mind, it means that hope is a fading star in a dying galaxy.

--Jami

P.S. Appologies for the massive amount of quoting. I did it more to help myself keep track of what was being said, then out of any true desire to highlight every little thing that was said in the post.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Hey Jami. :-)

Sorry it took me so long to respond. Thank you for enumerating all of your points; rather than making me feel that you were highlighting every little thing, I felt that you were doing exactly what you said you were...keeping track of everything in an orderly fashion.

There is a lot to be said for that technique. It definitely avoids more confusion. It allows me the opportunity to know exactly what your responses were related to, so that I myself was not confused.

I don't have much more to add except two things:

1) I agree with you that null's suggestion of 'slightly' restricted access is a very good one. It isn't any more selective than limiting the number of posts that newbies get to post per day. Excellent idea.

2) The thing you mentioned about how it would be just as irritating to have people constantly spamming the poetry board, as it is to have people requesting help with their homework...made me laugh!

This would be because the frustrated and deeply pained individual who was stalking me was one of the culprits in both of those endeavors. I know he wasn't the only one posting poorly written poems, or asking for help with his 'homework', or any of the many other 'red herrings' designed to waste time...but, well, you see, he seemed to have either started a trend, or pushed it further forward. Let me say again that I apologize for dragging him along with me like a piece of lint stuck to my coat. I hope that discussions like this will continue to occur on the NAO, and also that people will make the effort to clean up their writing.

Oops. I lied. One more thing...

Lastly, I would mention that though I don't like some forms of poetry, I know, and so do most thoughtful people, what has been written with feeling, and what is just mush and filler. I've read poetry written with feeling that I don't like, as well as poetry designed to cause problems which was actually pretty good...the vindictiveness notwithstanding. I daresay, I've stooped to that level myself, unfortunately, at times.

Thank you for your candor, and your kindness in responding to me. It is much appreciated. What a cool friend. Who-hoo!

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Jul 10, 2005.