Reading Linux

I'm talking about the mainstream. I'm talking about the userbase we'd gain if linux took over microsoft's place in the market. I'm talking about the people who "Only use a computer to check thier email". Those people who have no moral or intellectual interest in linux and open source technology. I'm talking about WINDOWS uses. Not people who have grown into linux, but hte people who couldn't figure out linux if it bit them in the butt. Those people who COULDN'T appreciate it. I'm talking about windows users.

I'd love it if these people would start using linux. Then they'd stop asking me to fix their computers and remove spyware :)

well i tried other distros. but i feel something is missing :] when i install kde, for example it installs tons of dependencies. and i can't do anything about it, except doing a manual compile. but that's what i had gentoo for, right? :D i just can't get accomodated to predefined dependencies anymore, and if my binary linux distro has to use from-source compilation, well, i'm going back to gentoo :D

I've noticed that too. QT4 is supposed to have a much smaller memory footprint though, so this may change. Also, gcc C compiling is much more developed, which benefits GTK. As G++ catches up KDE/QT could definitely gain the performance upperhand.

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

I don't really see why KDE is complained about. It's fast as far as I can tell, hell, I've seen machines that had to use a page file for half the memory usage of KDE and kde still ran flawlessly and at usable speeds (usable being fast enough that I didn't have to switch to fluxbox after 5 minutes).

KDE is fast, it works, and it's cheif offering is luxury. If you really wanna get the best of both worlds, try XFCE4. With the next release of XFCE, we'll have some VERY nice features, like icon view with xffm (which should increase usability, 10x if not more). As for gnome, well, as much as I hate to say it, it's a bloody mess. I don't know how it got so freakin' crazy, but everything that is gnome literally bugs the piss out of me. XFCE gives me the one thing GNOME does that I care about GTK.

Perhaps you are right when you say QT is better, and I'll never dispute that. NEVER. Because I couldn't say. But, I will dispute the applications. Every application I care to use is better in GTK.

Imaging: GIMP
Instant Mesaging: GAIM
IRC: X-Chat 2
Web Browsing: Mozilla Firefox
CD Burning: Graveman
Media Player: Beep Media Player
Peer To Peer: GTK-Gnutella and Bittorrent
GUI Portage Interface: Porthole

Granted, many of these have QT workalikes, but none of them are as well designed. The only QT irc client I know of sucks compared to X-Chat. As far as instant messaging, GAIM is the peak of usability. GIMP, well, when it's making some people save themselves the price of photoshop and paint shop, there's not much to argue. Is there even a decent imaging program with the QT toolkit?

I have to admit, though, I'd rather have GTK apps installed in a QT environment (KDE) than QT apps installed in a GTK environment. Since there are ways of skinning GTK apps to look "not-like-ass" in kde. Honestly? This shit needs to end. We need a single, usable and centralized toolkit, but there's a lot of projects that'd need to get revised to do that and some of them simply wouldn't happen.

If we were to go just off of applications and pick a toolkit and stick with it, it'd be GTK, I fear simply because of all teh applications offered. I do agree though, KDE is much more configurable, and I've always loved that, but it's so dayum buggy of late. XFCE is a little faster, more responsive and is clean. Perhaps you should see my desktop? Until they come out with more desklets for adesklets, it'll continue to look barren.

What do you guys think? If we were to have an app for app shootout to decide what toolkit stayed which would win? My money is on GTK, simply because when configured right, GTK looks so much slicker, and really, all the apps in GTK are better. Oh, and it's not so slow...

I don't get it, where is this QT slowness coming from? I never notice it.

I should be ashamed of myself.

I'd love it if these people would start using linux. Then they'd stop asking me to fix their computers and remove spyware :)

My reason for beleiving what I do is partly selfish:

If all the mainstream users came over to linux, sure we could use the mainstream attention, but then we get mainstream system compromises, spyware, and virii. We get mainstream digital rights management, and we get mainstream I can't do this or that bullshit. We get everything I absolutely hate about windows.

Windows has a purpose in my life, even though it's not on my computer. It is a wall, it protects me. With Windows Xp being the definitive OS for the mainstream, it gets all the really nasty viruses and all the retards that can't use computers.

The only good thing that'd come with mainstream attention is importance. We might be able to stop fearing software patents as much, or microsoft might start pushing harder for it... I still think linux should be reserved for those who care enough to appreciate it's true value.

Given my explanation, what do you think now?

I should be ashamed of myself.

Windows biggest vulnerability to virii is that it's a binary system with no variations, and one standard.

some linux distros are build from source, with totally weird compilation options (hi there, gentoo-ricers :D) so the binary file might change on nearly every PC. packages can have different levels of funcionality (enabling/disabling features at compilation time, compiling against different libraries) which varies them even more. and linux works on various platforms, which makes writing a universal linux virus VERY difficult task. you could go smart and write an interpreted script-virus. but you can't guarantee that every linux it comes across would have interpreter for that script installed :] also linux has very tight permission system, and overcoming them via some exploit is also very difficult, since security updates happen often.

every linux installation can be _totally_ different. windows installs are more uniform. some viruses/spyware on windows rely heavily on IE, even if you don't use it for browsing the 'net. they assume that you have IE somewhere on your HD. well they are usually right, since you have no choice in that matter (with standard, non-modded windows install :])

in linux script cannot even guarantee if it will be run on typical C libraries or not /propably the most important library in linux|unix systems/ . some system are statically linked with no glibc, some use uclibc, other dietlibc. there is no single part of gnu system that would be the same in most computers. you cannot bet that every user will use graphical display system. some computers run linux even without a graphic card, keyboard or monitor! (esp. some servers) and linux runs on different devices : PCs, PDAs, cellphones, DVD players (how would a virus end up there...? :D), car radios (and there...?:>), etc etc.

so it's generally difficult to find a big group of people using EXACTLY the same linux system. how can you make a single virus that would wreak havoc in such varied environment?

linux is still not ready for mainstream because it's not suited for typical user who has little knowledge on computers.
partitions, filesystems, kernel variations - this all is too "hardcore" for typical person who just wants to work happily on his computer without going to deep "under the hood". there are distros that improve the situation, like mandrake/suse/knoppix, but they also have issues :]

let's face it : believe it or not, there are actually people NOT interested in computers, but still using them for various simple things. they just use them for entertainment, not as their way of life.

i have a friend who just surfs the web, chats and listens to music on her PC, polishing her musical profile on audioscrobbler :] . she is NOT interested in technical details, because she has non-IT interests. (studying english and getting drunk often, to name the two :] )
-------------------------
do you know how does your watch work? if you don't, does it prevent you from using it? that's what WE should realize.

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

I disagree with why linux is secure. Linux has a permissions system. Linux has limits on what non-root users can do. When you're on a normal desktop windows box, all users and applications have root privileges.

"Nurture your mind with great thoughts, for you will never go any higher than you think."

I disagree with why linux is secure. Linux has a permissions system. Linux has limits on what non-root users can do. When you're on a normal desktop windows box, all users and applications have root privileges

That is true, but we have less attacks and attempted virii due to our little shield. I guess both make life easier for me... Linux is eutopia, until the rest of the world joins me. Then it becomes the norm. :(

I should be ashamed of myself.

When you're on a normal desktop windows box, all users and applications have root privileges.

Not at all. Windows has a much more fine-grained permissions system than pretty much any Unix (especially considering that under most Linuxes it's just root/non-root and the ability to play with POSIX capabilities is pretty much ignored). Adding restricted users on an NT-based box (and enforcing those restrictions) is a piece of cake. Of course it's easy to be logged in as an administrator all of the time, but doing everyday work as root under Unix is just as easy.

"God is dead." - Nietzsche, 1882 "Nietzsche is dead." - God, 1900

This post was edited by null on Jul 16, 2005.

some people just need their desktop to work. they want their office suite to launch quickly so they can get to work. from that point of view all those fireworks are really annoying. when you want to do somethnig quickly all this eye-candy becomes a nuisance.

This is silly, who *needs* their computer to just work, that'd be boring. The computer is a work of art that needs to be massaged, stroked, pushed, pulled and fondled. This is realized by the constant never ending love making known as tweaking and emerging the latest point releases of software from the abyss known as the open source community. The real epiphany comes when you finally achieve climactic orgasm when you realize that Gentoo is the mother of all Linux distributions.

pa..sha.. the computer just working... yeah right. wake up.

Yeah, I agree with majic here. Linux is awesome, and it brings out the joys of my computer. I love using linux for whatever reason. It's fun, and makes my system more responsive yada yada, who cares. I use it because shit works. I don't gotta pay 100 bucks to burn CD's and DVD's. I don't gotta pirate software to use my computer to the fullest... And I dont' have to put up with bugs. (granted skill limits me from correcting them, but right now we are talking about the moral part).

Linux is fun. Just using it is amazing. Then, when you start coding everything gets better. God I love how easy it is to start a programming project. Since the OS is basically a compiler with a kernel, writing software is a snap. I don't think it has to be easy, because it's a hacker's OS, and well, as far as that goes gentoo IS the hacker's distro. LFS is more hardcore, but hell, who uses that practically (it's goal is to teach users the ins and outs of linux)? Those that do get props, but gentoo is a VERY happy medium. As for SuSE, Red Hat, Fedora, Mandriva, and Linspire? They have thier place... And all of them for me are similar to windows. They aren't on my machine but I gain by thier existence.

I should be ashamed of myself.

This post was edited by Aynjell on Jul 14, 2005.

This is silly, who *needs* their computer to just work, that'd be boring. The computer is a work of art that needs to be massaged, stroked, pushed, pulled and fondled. This is realized by the constant never ending love making known as tweaking and emerging the latest point releases of software from the abyss known as the open source community. The real epiphany comes when you finally achieve climactic orgasm when you realize that Gentoo is the mother of all Linux distributions.

pa..sha.. the computer just working... yeah right. wake up.

seems like you totally missed my point. that's fully normal - since we're mostly geeks here ;) /can't talk for myself, though/ . you need to realize there ARE some people don't have such big interest for computers. they watch movies once in a while, reply to mails, use them for office work, listen to music. they do simple things. they are NOT interested in the "complicated stuff". they rely on others to take care of that. they are NOT interested HOW it works, and they don't care.

everyone abides to the laws of physics, but not everyone cares about them.

how do i put this....computers are to serve people. it's NOT supposed to be the other way around.
-------------
and mind you, it's actually LFS that is the mother of all distributions - every distribution starts from another distribution, or gets created from scratch. and first linux system was built, well, from scratch.

you could say that Minix was the ancestor of linux, since that's what Linus was writing first linux kernels on. /i'm not taking the gnu toolkit into account here. don't know what they were working on/

besides - LFS is not a distribution but rather a bunch of guidelines and pointers to make your linux system with no deps management, from source. you don't have to stick to guidelines, you can always try to do some experiments on your own /that's CLEARLY stated in the book/. so even at installation level every LFS can be different. and i'm not talking about simple compile optimizations. you can seriously break dependencies, do crazy things with the thing. as long as it still compiles, you're good :]

so LFS is just a bunch of suggestions about what you should do to create a linux system. you don't have to follow them if you want - as they stated, some folks created a web server box that sticks into 8mb using LFS methods :|

but you still need another linux system to make it, though. so there.
-------------
gentoo is something else. it's a from-source _distribution_ that comes with installer that manages dependencies. and it also was created under other linux system, that existed _before_ gentoo.

i'd straighten this up - The real epiphany comes when you finally achieve climactic orgasm when you realize that Gentoo is the most versatile distribution. /remeber, i don't count LFS as a distro. besides it's not too comfortable to use. gentoo is a good versatile-usable tradeoff/.

I agree with majic here. I love using linux for whatever reason. It's fun, and makes my system more responsive yada yada, who cares. I use it because shit works.

however it seems like he does not agree with you :/

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

This post was edited by yoshi314 on Jul 14, 2005.