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Are you done with this subject?

What has been totally twisted up and fucked with? Maybe you should clarify, or be more specific...

I have already stated that the difference between love and a loving marriage is that the two that love each other are interested in raising children together. And any woman that'd object to that is not my type.

Maybe your idea of the difference between love and loving marrigage is that. But it isn't, mine, nor is it that of a large percentage of the population that wants to make their commitment to each other legal in the eyes of the state and of the church. What about those of us who love someone else, and would like that kind of commitment, but can't live up to your standards, Aynjell of being able to procreate? Some of us can't fucking have kids, Aynjell. Does that mean, apparently, by your rigid standards that we are shit out of luck? I guess...that it does. And I guess I ain't your type. But then, I don't think I ever was...

That's what marriage is for, and any girl that's not a harlot or a whore or a lesbian would understand it.

I guess, since I don't comply with your definition of what marriage is for, then I must be a harlot, a whore and a lesbian!!! Technically speaking, I am not a lesbian, I am bisexual. And I suppose now, your REAL feelings come out Aynjell. You don't like strippers and you consider them harlots and whores...Why don't you confirm that for me, and then MAYBE I'll get back to you. Or more likely, I'll tell you just exactly where you can go. If that's they way you feel, then I'm done.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Jul 27, 2005.

This post was deleted by request of the author.

I should be ashamed of myself.

...much like christ said, I can approve of you and not your actions. It's forgiveness, it's love.

...Approve of my actions? You are going to 'forgive' me for being a stripper and a bisexual woman? I don't need your forgiveness for that any more than you need my forgiveness for you supposedly being a sociopath, who doesn't understand why manipulating other people is wrong. And saying that about you isn't saying anymore than you have admitted to online yourself. Why don't you understand that running around calling people, directly or indirectly, harlots and whores is fucked up?

You tap me on the pager, and tell me I misinterpreted what you said? I think this response of yours is obvious that I DIDN'T misunderstand at all... not at all. I understood all too well, apparently. :-(

I will not sacrifice my moral and spiritual convictions for you.

My response: Sure, fine have them. I didn't ask you too. I asked you not unleash a bunch of vitriol. Excuse me for trying to be the kind of person I am. Older and wiser. As you so KINDLY pointed out about the HUGE gap in our ages. You seem to have misunderstood me here. I said you never WERE my type. I wasn't interested in anyone here from the get-go. I flirt, like everybody else. YOU are the one who brought up, in that previous post, how any woman who couldn't understand that marriage was for people who wanted to have children, was not the woman for you. YOU are the one who brought up, in the previous post, how any woman that couldn't understand where you were coming from was a harlot, a whore, and a lesbian.

I just responded to those statements. I was never interested in you in that way. Especially not after you told me what you did, for which you said you felt no remorse. Especially not after that. I was only frightened of you when you said you had no remorse. And yet, I find it hard to believe that you feel no remorse on that subject. I think it more likely that you do, but you are martyring yourself to some erroneous diagnosis someone gave you, because you want to punish yourself. And I honestly think having this conversation here is a way for you to try to screw yourself out of some friends. Yeah, I forgave you too, if we want to be all self-righteous about this, but I don't trust you. I don't trust you to be honest with yourself. That doesn't mean you aren't my friend.

This gets me all the way around though:

The penis is an implantation device, not a buttplug. You may enjoy it, and I'm sure jack the ripper loved tearing women up, but was it any better? We are not in a black and white world and just because I enjoy it, does not make it right.

Who is really talking here? Is someone else putting words in your mouth? You seem to have some kind of spell cast over you. What do you enjoy, Aynjell? And if you are referring to what I think you are... I think you are wrong. Dead wrong. You DON'T enjoy it. Someone else told you that you did. You are so sweet down inside of all that crap someone loaded on you. You got hurt, and you dished out the same crap. Everyone who has been abused has...just about. And you aren't at risk for being gay because you've been abused, anymore than you are at risk for liking asparagus. You don't have to attack people because you are afraid of that, Aynjell.

Your logic is so screwed up. On a lighter note...

It's a beautiful thing, and was barred to the married for one logical reason: Married parents tend to be more loving, logical, supportive parents.

First of all, lets break this down. 'It' being sex, I assume. So what you are saying is that 'sex' was barred to the married? I don't think you mean 'barred' at all. I think the correct word would be: 'connected'. Poor choice of words, and not a very strong way of conveying your point. It only reeks of anger and impulsiveness. Something that I can truly relate to... And how does it logically follow that married parents tend to be more logical? Explain that one to ALL of us please...it doesn't logically follow. There is something, I guess, about the bonds of marriage that makes you more logical? I think there are a lot of confused married couples out there who would beg to differ on that one. What flawed logic you have my dear...if that one's true, then maybe you should get married.

I'll buy, MAYBE, more loving and supportive, just because when you know someone is probably committed to you, that knowledge is one less stress, and can allow the heart to open wider to other people, including children, because you have it within to give...because someone is there to support you. So no, I am not interested in you in that way either, no, I don't want to get married. But I do want to patch this fence. Primarily because I see what it is doing to both of us. The two of us have been hurt badly, and here we are hurting each other.

You ARE hurting people if you call them 'whores' and 'harlots'... and it is just plain shitty to create a subgrouping called: harlots, whores and lesbians. Maybe you just hate who hurt you.

I don't need to be told I'm wrong, when I KNOW I'm right.

Go on. With...your God complex. If you truly have one. But I'm betting you don't. You are just scared and lashing out. Exactly what I did when I first wrote this post. And yeah, I edited it. Because the light dawned on me. And I am kinda scared for both of us, to tell the truth.

I never said you were wrong, I said you didn't need to go around cutting people down the way you were, especially, I might add, when you aren't even that good at it. I basically said if you wanted to go around hash slinging, I'd MEET YOU FAIR AND SQUARE ON THAT ONE, BUDDY. So here I am. I told you...that you were entitled to your opinion. But you don't need to go around calling people 'harlots', 'whores', and the like. I think it is pretty fairly obvious to whom that passive-aggressive behaviour of yours was directed at. You didn't like me trying to be nice and asking you to stop cutting people down. That's clear. Your last post makes that pretty clear. Especially with you calling my job as a stripper, lowly.

Man, take the forgiveness stuff, and stick it where the sun don't shine. I don't need to be forgiven. And neither do you. Except by yourself. I can't convince you of my truth, nor can you convince me of my yours. But my truth is mine, and yours is yours. I may be a hothead, and say things I don't mean to, but that doesn't mean we can't both coexist.

I might add that I think we had agreed to disagree until some people stirred the flames again. And I really don't think it was either ginsterbusch or Orchid who did that. I'm not naming names, but something stinks here. It stinks to high Heaven. I smell a rat. Garrison Keillor my ass. You are still my friend, Aynjell, but word to the wise: Both of us seem to be like caged and tortured animals, fighting for the right to be heard. I am still dealing with my issues. Let's give each other some space and then talk. Otherwise...we'll loose the friendship for sure.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Jul 27, 2005.

Let me add, for the record here...since I can no longer edit the above post, and really, really wish that it's original form had not been read by anyone: I've fixed it as much as I can. Aynjell, is just being vulnerable. You guys do the math.

This drama doesn't need to happen. I realized what was happening; even if everyone else doesn't, at least I know. I don't need a 'pat on the back' from anybody here except the people I have come to trust. It takes a while for me to trust anyone. I'm kinda like the fox in The Little Prince, and I think Aynjell is too. I may not trust you if I don't know you, and I will watch you to see if I can. But I fully trust ginsterbusch, Magnifico, Bunk, Orchid and null. I've left some out, but they aren't relevant to this discussion. Aynjell, I love even when he pisses me off, and I'm sure he thinks I'm difficult too.

People, can we stop this bickering please?! If you want to pat someone on the back, do it elswhere, and don't stir up more shit. This thread needs to end. We are spinning our wheels. Let's stop.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Jul 27, 2005.

This post was deleted by request of the author.

I should be ashamed of myself.

This post was edited by Aynjell on Jul 27, 2005.

First of all, I have to say that I am really hating what I see happening here once again. We have two of our inner members, the ones who are among those who are the most contributive as far as posts are concerned, fighting one against the other, and I find all of this very disgusting.

I read harsh words on both parts, and I won't even comment on that. You guys are both wrong, and I don't care if you are going to rate me down for this post, but I think that there is really the need to pour down some cold, icy water on your boiling heads in order to have you back to reason again.

I don't even want to remind you that there are ways and ways to express your feelings or your beliefs without hurting each other, because at this point it would be totally useless since the damage has been done already.

What I believe is that human beings are all the same under God: they have the same rights, and they are looked upon in the same way. If you don't believe in God, and you're an atheist, well then I'd tell you that I also believe that all the human beings are all the same under the State, or this is what it should be.

I might not like gays, I might think that it is disgusting to go with one of my own sex, and I might find horrible the idea of two men having sex together. I am straight, I am a woman who likes men, and I have never even considered the idea of switching to the other side, because I am totally satisfied with my life the way it is, and I know I am not born lesbian.

However, I respect other people, and I respect gays (or lesbians). I believe that they have rights, the same rights I have. And when I get married, me and my husband will be recognized by the State or the Church as a family, and as a family we'll gain certain rights that we wouldn't have as singles. One of them might be the visits at the hospital: if you have a surgery done, your husband or wife can stay with you the whole time, especially if it is a risky thing. A gay/lesbian partner though wouldn't have that right, since the couple is not actually a couple according to the law. I am sure that there are many more examples you can think of.

Now, I don't know about a gay couple adopting a child. I have to say that I am totally against in vitro procreation, therefore in the case of two lesbians, I would be totally against them using the sperm of someone else in order to have a baby. I would be against that even if the two wanting-to-be-parents were an heterosexual couple though! I think that a baby needs a healthy environment to grow up into, especially an adopted one, since I imagine that there would be several issues with him that wouldn't be there in the case of a biological child.

It is not my job to prove that an heterosexual couple is better than a gay couple to raise a child, or that a gay couple is not made to raise a child. I think that there are plenty of psychologists or what not to establish that. And I can understand the view of those who feel it innatural and wrong, but at the same time I understand also the opposite.

The truth is that this was a bad topic to start with, and doomed to create a conflict within Nao. I just hope that this post of mine can somehow put an end to it, and that nobody else decides to open the Pandora's box ever again.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

This post was edited by andromacha on Jul 27, 2005.

No, I wouldn't rate that down... andromacha....as a matter of fact, if I was going to rate, which I haven't been on this topic for quite some time now, even while being hurt and angry... I would rate it excellent. Because it is. Thank you. I think we reached a place where we agree to disagree, which was where we were at before, until people started stirring shit up.

Now, it's my fault and Aynjell's fault for responding... but, oh well. I did, however, have to write another post in defense of myself, because there were yet more attacks. Attacks about information that I wasn't divulging out of confidence to say, because Aynjell mentions such elsewhere here online. I can't stand there and watch someone try to paint me as a 'nut', especially after all I've been through; but, I don't have to be mean about it. I slipped. I fell. I picked myself up again. I'm human. So is Aynjell.

I don't think either of us realized what we were doing to each other. Now, with that said, I have GOT to go to bed before this bacterial throat infection gets the better of me.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Jul 27, 2005.

I'm not schizophrenic. And you shouldn't lie. It's not nice. People can look up some of your past posts from way back, and see that you had a history of at least some kind of abuse. Someone hurt you. Please don't deny this and try to crucify me by leaving me out to dry on this one. You even told me about it yourself. That's not nice, trying to make me look crazy. That's not what a friend does. Please stop this stuff, Aynjell. Stop it. Please.

I may have been diagnosed as Bipolar at one time, but you and I both know that we each share a history of being abused. I haven't come this far, getting past having one of my former adult abusers stalk me online here, and trying to make me feel crazy...to have you try to discredit me. Especially, when all I am trying to do at this point is care.

You aren't sociopathic, no matter what some idiot doctor may or may not have told you, or what you read, or wherever you got that idea. You've never actually called yourself one to me, but you've definitely hinted at it. You don't have it in you, though. You aren't that coldly calculated and sinister. Your emotions are just blocked and you are hurting inside.

And what you said to me on the pager about thinking that people here are nothing more than a fleck of dirt under your nails... and how you don't care about anybody, you'll just use them as a stepping stone, is neither true of you...NOR did you not say it. You said it about yourself, but it isn't true of you. You have been trying to characterize yourself as a sociopath for some time. You AREN'T one. You have a good heart down under all that mess, and you don't have to hate on people the way you have been.

I take offense to name-calling like 'harlot', 'whore', and those being lumped in with 'lesbian', which technically, I'm not, either; because it's just mean...and I have to hear that stuff from jerks at work every once in a while. But I don't have sex for money. I don't suck cock for money, and I like both men and women. I take offense also, because I have to work with women who DO do those things, when I refuse to. Now, please will you stop attacking people? Stop trying to make me out as crazy? Don't lie about what you know is readily available information about yourself online here at the NAO, and other people know who care about you.

And talking about 'spells', well, James, you used to be a Wiccan, did you not? I'm pretty sure you've mentioned that here...I can try digging for it, but I'd rather not. I chant Sanskrit mantras, but that is not spellwork. It fits into both the Hindu and Buddhist religious traditions. Stop the cheap shots, James. It isn't becoming, and it isn't nice. You don't do that to a friend. I shouldn't have done it to you. I made a mistake. And so have you.

Why are you making this so hard, James? Stop. Do you want help? Then take it from someone who has been in your shoes...who has been hurt by others, and has beat herself up over it. You aren't responsible. And neither is the gay world. But most of all, you aren't responsible for what happened to you, or how you handled it. You 'acted out' in your own way, and so did I. I hurt many people. We each had our own ways, and those are nobody's business but ours. That part of it that you told me in confidence I will not reveal. It's not my place.

I just want to give you a big fat hug, and let you cry and scream and rage. It's what I did. It's way harder doing it alone, James. Please just take my hand, man. You can scratch it, you can squeeze it, but it's still here for you.

I won't make the mistake of attacking you in return now. I really am done. With attacking you. I want you to heal. This is hard for me James. I am healing too. I am learning to not attack the ones I love. That hatred just eats you up inside. I'm pretty sure it's why I am sick again. That, and leaving Dow Scrubbing Bubbles foam on my feet for 24 hours. Mr. Potato Head would surely say that it's partly due to feeling hate inside, and I'd have to agree with him on that one. Even though he nurtures it himself in secret. I hope you won't keep pushing buttons just to see if I care, cause I really do. But if you do, for you, I WILL turn the other cheek. I'll only refute what I know isn't true, and not respond by attacking. Can't you tell some people do love you?

You've been such a good, good friend in the past...so kind to me. Always lent an ear, and a humorous website link. I'm not better than you, I just realized that this has to stop. If you'd realized it first, you'd be saying the same thing, probably.

Please. James. Please. I am begging. Please.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Jul 27, 2005.

This post was deleted by request of the author.

I should be ashamed of myself.

This post was edited by Aynjell on Jul 27, 2005.

Enough, Aynjell.

First of all, if you read just 'even' the first paragraph of what I said before, you'd realize that I actually said: supposedly sociopathic. I never called you a sociopath to my knowledge. I basically stated that you seemed to think yourself to be one, and I stated that I disagreed. A careful read of that will prove that.

Further, the characteristics that you have maligned yourself with when speaking to me on the pager and on threads like this, are characteristic of that type of behaviour. And yes you did, verbatim, pretty much...tell me on the pager that you considered people here "like a speck of dirt under your nails", and that you would "use people as a human shield, or like a stepping stone if they got in your way". Actually, I think Saqqara would verify that for me, too. I hope. Because she quoted just as much to me as well. Pretty much verbatim, too. And she cares a whole lot about what is going on as well, and cares about you.

Now. What I was saying was, that I didn't and don't believe that those statements you made about yourself were true. I think you said them to be mean, and because you were hurt. I don't see you as the kind of person to step on people at all.

You never said you didn't have any abuse in your past? I think in the post before this one, you specifically said that you 'had no ghosts in your closet'. And you were saying it in referrence to you 'thinking' I actually called you a sociopath, I assume...while you were calling me a schizophrenic. I'm pretty sure.

As far as being sick, I was sick long before this blip on the screen happened. And actually, I seem to be much better. I attribute that to only for a second stooping to sling hash the way you have been. Slinging hash like that is acting out. We've all done it, I've done it. I did it for one post, and tried to fix it. Please stop attacking me.

In summary, let me reiterate and encapsulate: I did not call you a sociopath, I railed against your supposedly being a sociopath. Big difference. You may not have directly called yourself one, but the characteristics even, that you gave yourself on the pager yesterday, fit the description, and [i]as I said[i/], I don't think that description fits you, at all. Also, you did seem to be denying any abusive past, and seemed to be doing that to paint me as delusional, and I believe, what you called me was schizophrenic. Directly. *shakes head* Further, I am not nearly as sick as I was, which refutes your premise that I care too much about this. I DO care. Immensely. But not enough to make myself sick. I already was sick. With a cold and bacterial infection. Not with a chemical imbalance, as you suggested.

Does this help? Do you understand why I said that it wasn't a problem for you to state your opinion, just simply to go around calling people names, and suggesting some of the things you did, which I won't repeat. People who want to dig into this mess can read them for themselves. But I hope, that they too, will drop this. Can we drop this, Aynjell?

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Jul 27, 2005.