Reading What Sucks

Jan 12, 2006 23:34 # 41376

Hawkeye *** shakes his head...

Archie Cartoon

am113.jpg

Take a good long look at this cartoon. Notice where he is pointing at.

Anything wrong here? It is just a sign of the times. It is just like seeing anti-nazi and anti-japanese propaganda during world war II. Aunt Jemima, too, is a figure representative of a past long gone.

America makes no secret of it. Blacks were oppressed. It was so much so, that it wasn't even TABOO to make derogatory remarks towards blacks at that time. The traditional role of a black person was to be no higher than a maid, cook, or waitress. The only possible exception to this rule might have been singers, the only profession blacks were considered equal in (in their own rite).

Does this mean americans were blinded? Would americans have done something if they thought it was wrong? I would argue so. This would imply they didn't think it was wrong. Like sex on television today, they didn't see anything unusually about it whatsoever.

So this might mean it continues to this day, does it not? What if americans are still blinded by this mundaneness which prevails to this day? Racial issues? Not necessarily. There might be plenty of things considered entirely normal which would be considered disturbing or even profane 50 years from now. Perhaps it would be sex on tv. Or maybe it would be even censorship of all media (maybe the future is liberal about nudity or violence).

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Jan 13, 2006 08:31 # 41378

andromacha *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Archie Cartoon

Hmm, I think that the link is broken or something, because I cannot seem to see the image. Anybody is experiencing the same, or is it just my Opera to be screwy?

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Jan 13, 2006 08:45 # 41379

null *** throws in his two cents...

Re: Archie Cartoon

It works with Opera when you drag&drop the broken image onto the tab bar (so that it loads the image in a new tab). I think the server is doing some kind of referrer blocking. If all else fails I've mirrored the image for your viewing pleasure.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Jan 17, 2006 21:23 # 41399

charlie *** replies...

Re: Archie Cartoon

66% | 3

Notice where he is pointing at.

Are you saying it's racist for Archie to point at the black man? He's the only one eating at the resturant, so to point at "anybody" being served, it has to be him.

Blacks were oppressed. It was so much so, that it wasn't even TABOO to make derogatory remarks towards blacks at that time. The traditional role of a black person was to be no higher than a maid, cook, or waitress.

And while I agree with you that this viewpoint is wrong, it isn't just in the past.

I ate at the Thompsen Center in Chicago this week (which, if you haven't been there is an amazing archiectual wonder and cheap eats too). And I was suprised at the racial roles that still existed. Every cashier, fast food worker, and L-train operator I met was a minority - predominently black. While the business crowd (the customers) remained largely white.

In short, it seems that the "traditional role of a black person" is still at a service level; it hasn't changed. We've just swept it under the politically correct rug with "equal opportunity employer" statements, and we've moved the maids out of our houses and into the retail stores.

"Equality" hasn't changed things too much. And that does suck.

Please contiune to vote AND post.

Jan 18, 2006 08:31 # 41402

andromacha *** takes out her flame thrower...

Re: Archie Cartoon

65% | 6

Here in Italy we have been experiencing immigration problems only in these last 20-25 years. I remember that when I was little whenever I went out in my little city I would see only white faces, while now it is a mixture of colors, of religions and cultures.

While I might think that these new people could be oxygen to my country, you know new cultures, new interactions... I don't like the situation that they are creating. First of all we have Roms - gypsies who steal and curse you, and I am ashamed of this but everytime I meet one asking me money I reply her in German or English, because at least she is scared and doesn't dare to curse me. And when I say curse, I don't mean "fuck off", but I mean more like "Your parents will die, and you will get a cancer" kinda thing. So with my friends at university, we have experienced that the best thing to avoid this is to tell them something in a foreign language, because they probably think that we are cursing them too and so they go away.

Then we have several other people coming from Africa, Albany, Georgia (the European state)... While some of them are nice, and I could mention here my friend Olsi - an Albanian guy who came here in Italy to study and who told me basically all the things they had to go through under the dictatorship until 1992), I still see too many of them stealing, raping our women, or committing several other smaller crimes. African people, those who don't have a job of course) tend to be at the corners of the street selling goodies - handkerchieves, lighters, sponges, bracelets... - or be drug dealers. Some Albanians are into that too actually.

What I really hate is hearing the news and having to deal with the fact that one of those people, most of the time not regularly immigrated in Italy, raped a woman, stole from an old lady... Granted, there are Italian criminals who rape women too, but more and more often now such things are done by these immigrants. Sometimes I feel like they are like savage beasts. I mean, I could even conceive stealing if you don't have money and are in necessity (I am not saying it's right tho!), but heck raping a woman!! That is what makes them similar to beasts in my opinion.

Probably I will now deserve the attribute of being intolerant to minorities, but it is not so. I am very tolerant. But I cannot accept that such people come here in Italy, and instead of getting a job they steal, become drug dealers or rape women. If that is the price to pay, then I would say "let's close our borders, and keep those people out". The trick is that we can't. There is this nice law that says that among the European countries, the immigrants have to stay in the country they reach first. So, if someone passed from Italy to go to Germany, Germany would have the right to send him back to us, and we'd have to accept him at that point. Unless of course he were not regularly immigrated. At that point we could send him back to his country.

Immigration is like a plague here nowadays. I mean, one thing is if another European or an American or Australian immigrate here in Italy. They are seen in a different way by people, and they will easily find a job, at least as easy as any other Italian (provided they know the language enough). But those people immigrating from third world countries... well unfortunately those who immigrated before them probably didn't come to work but just to steal and so forth, and so it's obvious that now people are diffident towards the new immigrants.

My idea is that we should accept only those who want to get a job. We should make it so that they can get the job, and therefore integrate within the society. And we should send back all the others. Why should we keep them here to increase the organized criminality?

Also another thing I have heard lately, which disgusted me came from this family of Muslim immigrants. They were perfectly integrated, or so it seems. They spoke Italian just fine and they had a job. The problems started when they had to send their child to school. Well, in our constitution it is written that while there is liberty of religion, Italy is a catholic country. What does this mean? That normally in public institutions like schools or hospitals there is a cross in each room. These Muslim had the courage to ask that the cross would be removed!! They went to a trial and of course they lost. You can imagine all the people there... they went on and on marching for as long as the trial lasted with signs that read "Go home" or "Integrate or go away". Now, I admit that this is a little intolerant, but at the same time what else were they supposed to do? Should we let them come in our beautiful country to bring their religion and their culture, and make it so that they change our customs? I don't think so. If I started to live in America, while I would cook Italian dishes and stuff, it's not that I would expect that everybody around me should be Catholic (my in-laws are Presbytherians). If you move to another country, then I think that you should accept its rules and customs fully. Otherwise you should stay home.

Maybe I am intolerant, I don't know. Certainly my post is not so much about discrimination though, if not at first. But it is actual fact though. I mean, lately the 75-80% of the crimes are committed by immigrate people, and not European, American... immigrates, but by third world immigrates. So shouldn't I be afraid if I see a "dark colored" man walking down the street who has an evil grin on his face?

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Jan 20, 2006 21:23 # 41419

andromacha *** takes out her flame thrower...

To those who rated me down...

90% | 5

Was my post unreadable maybe? Was my grammar wrong, were my sentences too long, or maybe didn't I break the text into paragraphs, was I off-topic?

I do think that at least those who rated me down should have the decency of explaining why. Maybe because my rant was against those immigrates who came to Italy in an irregular way, and who fill our streets of crime and rape our women?

Quite frankly, I am a little disappointed now. I wish I knew why, I want to have some feedback. Maybe there are some problems with what I have written? Maybe you don't like to hear that there are "colored" people who come here and do their fucking business destroying the lives of honest people, and hear me saying how I dislike those individuals because they are like beasts?

Lately one of the girls I know at my university was raped by one of those "darker colored" people, and I shouldn't be shocked? Maybe I shouldn't generalize, and I don't. I do like people who want to come here and burst their ass off working and everything, but to all of those who come here to increase crime... well I would really want to kick them where it hurts and send them back to their country.

And if you have rated me down because you think that I am a racist, then I ask you where is the freedom of thought and of speech? Am I all of a sudden not free to say what I think here on Nao anymore?

Feedback, please.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Jan 20, 2006 21:38 # 41421

charlie *** agrees...

Re: To those who rated me down...

I agree, if you are vote us down in a serious discussion like this, you could at least have the decency to tell us why.

Is it racist to talk about the reality of racism? I think not.

Please contiune to vote AND post.

Jan 21, 2006 03:18 # 41422

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: To those who rated me down...

I've heard some discussion on netalive about the digression of intelligeable posting lately. Andromacha's post is not it. Personally, I thought was very heartfelt and was on topic of the views on racism in the past and present.

I seriously think we should reserve ratings of 50% to those which do not contribute anything.

Andromacha, I agree with you that perhaps a more significant percentage of the black population which migrates to Italy might be more prone to crime. This is simple statistics, not racism.

Though it is still ethically wrong to be racist. But in defense, it has always been a tool of instinct to generalize. If you eat a red berry which makes you sick, you avoid all red berries, even the edible ones. While you may have an empty stomach, you stand to live another day. Thus it has served mankind well to generalize, especially for negative attributes.

So to "feel" safer alone in an alleyway with a white person versus a black person might even been better for survival since statistics seem to support this fact.

But ethics and survival rarely coincide.

In my opinion however, "racism" has been hammered into people's minds as a terrible thing and it is not so. Unfair treatment is a terrible thing. Do not mistake that for one moment as synonymous with racism. It is a ridiculous proposition to suggest that a black man and a white man are exactly the same. They are obviously different, but probably not much more different than two white men from a DNA perspective.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Jan 25, 2006 09:16 # 41462

Magicdead *** replies...

Re: Archie Cartoon

?% | 1

Although it's been some time and I've probably not even been born when it started, I know that there was a time when loads of Italian immigrants came to switzerland. A lot of the things you say about the 3rd world people has been said similarily about the italians back then. They were accused of being criminals, of stealing and so on. Today nobody cares about italians, but many swiss dislike the 'balkan people', like Albany, Cosovo and so on. So the situation now is about the same as you describe it. (Although I've never seen news about immigrants raping women, more the violence stuff like bashing/beating and stuff, and also swearing/mocking of 'normal swiss citizens'.

But doesn't it seem odd that, 20 - 30 years after italians have had those problems when coming to switzerland, they have the same problems with people coming from elsewere?

And I think that switzerland hasn't been afflicted by the italians that much, and hell, nothing has really changed due to immigration.

And I think a country can neither have a policy like, for instance, thailand, where no foreigner is allowed to get thai citizenship (not even when he/she is married to a thai person) nor are they allowed to own land/real estates. Or just ask yourself, what would make you behave better, when you own a house and are bound to the place you live somehow, or when you have nothing and can leave any time you want because there's nothing that keeps you there...

Or another example, there are maybe a lot of north-african people coming from the sahara/north of the sahara where you live, and maybe they also count to the "immigrants" you're talking about. Fact is, in their countries of origin, those people have a HUGE immigration problem because of all the south-african people who travel through their countries to reach europe (and many of those south-africans stay in north africa for a long time). there is a city in the sahara that had 110 inhabitants about 10 years ago... now it has something from 15000-20000.

what I want to point out, it seems that racism is something like a natural law to humans, like something that comes naturally like other feelings. Something almost all humans have no matter where they come from. It's just the same as saying "when I was young, everything was better" which has been said in all countries throughout all times/ history.
And yet there's no record of any country that really has been damaged by immigration.

In fact, in the usual non-3rd world countries, 60-70% of the people are working in the service sector, and the number is rising. Most countries depend on immigrants who are willingly to do the jobs in the industrial sector that are badly paid and where the workforce is vanishing. Naturally this is not a process that works perfect, sometimes too many immigrants come and then your have unemployment, which naturally leads to other problems as well.
But it is a fact that without immigrants, almost NO european country could really survive. (most european countries have less than 2 children per married couple)

just my 2 cents

cya Magic

P.s. did you ever notice that mostly the people who say "ah those immigrants are so bad, they do violent things and steal our jobs" still have their jobs and have never been a victim of violence by immigrants ?

"The wise have always said the same things, and fools have always done the opposite"-Schopenhauer

Jan 25, 2006 15:59 # 41463

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Archie Cartoon

P.s. did you ever notice that mostly the people who say "ah those immigrants are so bad, they do violent things and steal our jobs" still have their jobs and have never been a victim of violence by immigrants ?

Here I can prove you wrong :P I am typically molested by gypsies around my university, and one night when I was getting to take the tram to go home I was "approached" by one of those, who surely wasn't there to say "hello, how are you". Fortunately for me he was totally done with drugs, so I could sort of easily run away, but you can't imagine how scary that was.

And another one of those guys tried to steal the purse of my grandmother a few years ago, but she was lucky enough because she realized what was happening and she started screaming; the guy got scared and ran away.

One of my friends at the university was almost raped by an Albanian guy. He even scratched her face with a broken glass or something (I saw her the next day) and he touched her everywhere (you can imagine the place without me mentioning it). He also threatened her not to report him to the police or he would have killed her. Somehow he didn't do everything, simply because another guy came out of a building, and saw what was happening.

And all of these three things are real, because they were regularly reported to the police, even though I doubt this has acomplished to something.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Jan 26, 2006 12:42 # 41475

Magicdead *** replies...

Re: Archie Cartoon

Well, I said mostly... and there are many people who complain about foreigners whithout ever having problems with it.

Well, there have been 'gypsies' who mocked me, too. Once it almost got into a fight because I'm usually not the guy that pulls his tail in, although I'm neither the guy who starts a fight/wants a fight.

But the funny thing is, the only time someone has really beaten me because of agressiveness, it was a swiss citizen with a swiss family, no immigrant. He was completely drunk, moaned something out from an edge when I was passing by on the streets, and I said back "good evening to you, too and have a nice night" and walked on, when suddenly he attacked me from behind and hit my nose bleeding, the friend who accompanied me ran away, I tossed him toward a wall, where he fell to the ground and kept sitting there and I walked off. And he wasn't just some drunk bum, from what he looked like, he could have worked at a bank an would have seemed completely normal to everyone.

I think this is a phenomenon similar to the one with pop-groups nobody listens to when asked but still they're in top 10 on the charts. When an immigrant does something bad, it gets a bigger article in the newspapers than when a non-immigrant commits a crime(although it depends on the severity of the crime). Some people experienc something bad with immigrants, the tell other people, those other people tell even other people how bad immigrants are and then, subtle, the public opinion gets bad about immigrants. during this whole process, people who already think that immigrants are bad don't give jobs to those immigrants or otherwise treat them differently, which gets the immigrants pissed of and gives them a feeling that they're not welcome. often those immigrants have a family at "home" which they have to feed, they can't just go back. Now how would you feel with a country full of people that don't want you to be there and a situation in which you cant retreat. It's sort of a vicious circle.

I've just seen some statistics:

Germany:

s06_tabelle.gif

<year> <known crimes> <politically mature total> <politically mature non-german> <quota of non-german suspects> (categories from left to right)
Switzerland:
[URL]http://www.ius.unibas.ch/aebersold/pa-kr2-w5.pdf[/URL]

Ermittelte Personen mit anderer als Schweizer
Nationalität machten in den letzten Jahren um 50 % aus, 2004 betrug der Anteil 53,9%.
Nach allen bisherigen Untersuchungen ist der hohe Ausländeranteil vor allem auf
Personen ohne Schweizer Wohnsitz sowie auf Asylsuchende zurückzuführen, nicht
jedoch auf eine überproportionale Kriminalitätsbelastung der ausländischen
Wohnbevölkerung.

Translation:
Investigated persons with other than Swiss nationality formed about 50% in the past years, 2004 the contingent was 53.9%
After all present surveys, the high foreigners quota can be put down to mainly persons without swiss residence and asylum seekers, but not to an overproportional crime-rate of the foreign resident population.

And I bet there are statistics for this in your country as well.

And there are many immigrants that live in your country since many years, and to whom it's also become "their country" which the would never leave again, and I bet it would hurt them if they hear somebody say that immigrants are bad criminals. I'm sure of it.

so usually it foreigners that are there illegally anyways, so it's just unfair to think bad about the inhabiting foreigners just because of those illegal immigrants.

cya Magic

"The wise have always said the same things, and fools have always done the opposite"-Schopenhauer

Jan 25, 2006 06:44 # 41459

Katty_Impact * replies...

Re: Archie Cartoon

This Archie cartoon was not meant to be racist at all. Mr, Weatherbee says "Archie, do you serve crabs?"
Archie replies "sure, we serve anybody"...or something to that effect. Archie was playing on Mr. Weatherbees words, implying that they "serve even crabs," (not "we'll serve anybody, including this black guy")
The man that makes Archie comics pumps out hundreds of them a year, aside from his sexual inuendos, I think it's just hard to put a funny joke on every cover. Give the guy some credit, not everything in life has some hidden meaning.
Unless you are talking about something else in this picture that I didn't see?

Jan 25, 2006 18:31 # 41466

Hawkeye *** replies...

Debunkment

Well I would tend to agree with you if that cartoon was made at this day and age. Though, you have to realize that then, black people weren't drawn into cartoons to have a "politically correct" mix. They had some purpose. Always.

Do you think it is a coincidence that none of archie or his friends are black? I don't think it is. It's just that it was before the days of political correctness. And so if a black person was drawn into a cartoon and then a joke maybe kinda ties into him.. it probably does, because there would have been no other purpose for a black man to be in that cartoon.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Jan 26, 2006 07:18 # 41472

Katty_Impact * replies...

Re: Debunkment

?% | 1

The black guy in this cartoon isn't some "randon dude"...it's Chuck! Chuck and Nancy have been around since the seventies in Archie cartoons. As well as Josie and the Pussycats (the band), which had a black member named Valerie. They do have black friends, and I think the cartoonist of Archie comics has done the best he can do. In this day it's so hard to do anything without offending SOMEONE! I can't even say Merry Christmas anymore without offending someone.

Jan 28, 2006 22:58 # 41505

parmenides * replies...

Re: Archie Cartoon

?% | 1

Sorry Katty, but the cartoon is absolutely racist. The guy is apparently pointing at the black guy. Our fathers made many mistakes, and we don't have to find excuses or ways to cover up their wrong acts.

tikky con con...


Small text Large text

Netalive Amp (Skin for Winamp)