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Also, I know that the press is not run by the state of course, but I do believe that if they make a mistake that can offend other nations, then they should be obliged to apologize by the government, or the government itself should apologize for them.

If the government were to force them to apologize or apologize on the behalf of them, it would be result in a form of government press control. I do not feel this is the responsibility or place of the government in a free society. Individuals/Organizations should be held responsible for their own actions, and the government should not have to tell the world that the entity apologizes for an action as it is quite likely not accurate. As for the government try to oblige them to apologize, this seems to me that you are saying the government should treaten with some sort of punishment if they do not act in a way that the government sees as acceptable. And that is a slippery slope to follow.

They do not hate us because of our culture. They hate us because of what we have done to them.

While the latter half of this statement is partially true, the former IMO is not. To my understanding, their have been many references over the years by Islamic clerics saying that westerners are trying to pollute Islamic culture with their ideologies which are in contradiction with the teachings of the Koran.

For what? For Israel. Why didn't they cut off a piece of America or United Kingdom for the Jews to live, and make their own nation?
...
You could tell me that it's because Jerusalem is in the Middle East, but I think that's an easy and naive answer.

The reason that Palestine was chosen for the site of the Jewish state had a multitude of reasons behind it. One of those reasons was that Jerusalem happened to be in Palestine, and according to Jewish beliefs, Jerusalem is a city given to them by God himself. Another reason is the Palestine was a British Colony in the area, not an independent arab nation, so it was not taking away land that the Arab nations had any right to.

So while I don't like them very much, and while I do think that those people are scary, and while I think that they do not treat their women well, and they don't grant the liberty that our constitutions grant, I cannot say I don't understand why they act like this. America did not respect them to begin with, and therefore they got what they "deserved" (not that they deserved that in my opinion, but to the eyes of a Muslim that was the right punishment).

This paragraph as well as other statements you have made throughout your posts do not sit well with me. The reason for this is that when I read them. it seems like you are referring to Muslims as a whole, and not just the extremists/fundamentalists who hold views that are dangerous. This could be a misunderstanding on my part, but that is how it sounds.

Well, I disagree. Let me just say, I didnt read any of the other replies, because well, frankly I dont have the time.

If you are musilm or easily offended I suggest stopping here!

It's about time that something is said about this radical religion of Islam which is turning the world upside down. I myself have not seem the cartoons, yet, I can only imagine the thruth which rings from within their humorosity.

Honestly, how can you defend a perverted/demented radical who saw hullicinations, drank camels piss and married a 9 year old?

Only this a religion such as this exepects to be tolerated by the whole world, all the while it is the most filthy, intolerant and destructive of them all. No other religion demands that everyone abides by its strictures and avoid words and deeds that one might find upsetting or offensive. Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Mormons: They don't lash out in violence when their religious sensibilities are offended. They certainly don't expect their beliefs to be immune from criticism, mockery, or dissent.

Every relgion except Islam, and frankly, I'm tired of its bullcrap.

Only with Islam could anything so mild trigger a reaction so isane (riots, death threats, kidnappings, flag-burnings). To me this just speaks volumes about the gap that separates the values of the civilized world from those in much of the Islamic world.

Freedom of the press, the marketplace of ideas, free trade, womens rights, animal rights, the ability to disagree with what you say while firmly defending your right to say it: Islam knows none of this. And if the jihadis get their way, such freedoms we take for granted will be discarded and replaced with the hate and intolerant propaganda of the Koran and Hadith.

Even if the cartoons were slander, which they werent, they still have the right to be said.

Muslims have suffered no wrong; Muslims have inflicted the wrong.

I'm sure everyone will disagree with me, especially my European counterparts, but dammit, I just had to say it. Having a already terrible day just made it that much easier.

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Honestly, how can you defend a perverted/demented radical who saw hullicinations, drank camels piss and married a 9 year old?

Well, i dont think you defend the radicals. You defend the innocent, rational people who happen to be of the same race/religion.

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

Honestly, how can you defend a perverted/demented radical who saw hullicinations, drank camels piss and married a 9 year old?

Well, i dont think you defend the radicals. You defend the innocent, rational people who happen to be of the same race/religion.

I believe that statement was not about current followers of the faith, but about a person of historical significance, perhaps the Prophet Mohammed himself, though I cannot verify this since I know little about his life.

I've been a part of Netalive for quite some time now and this is what I love about Netalive. I enjoy these types of discussions, I believe they represent the unique views we all share on this board. Some of us share different views, yet we as a whole still respect the opinions of others.

(GASP) Talking about religion. I remember being taught during years of continuous sales training that the three things to stay away from during conversation is religion, marriage, and politics. Those were three issues most people were sensitive about and could easily be insulted over. Well, since this post is lively, I am going to join this party, so let’s get the shin-dig started!!

For the past few years I've had a bone stuck in my throat for any extremist group, let alone Islamic/Muslims. I understand I may receive flak for my statements, oh well that is life. I cannot understand why peace eludes the human race. Wait, yes I can. Religious extremist groups ladies and gentlemen, religious extremist groups.

I will say this right now. I feel no pity for the Muslim/Islamic practice. Why? Simple, where are they when the Islamic or Muslim extremist groups hit? In my opinion and my opinion may very well be wrong, yet it is my opinion; the Muslim/Islamic groups are like soap opera stars or high school drama queens. They wait for something small(cartoon) and yes this is ridiculously small, and then all of a sudden the Muslim/Islamic extremist group come out of the woodwork with another excuse to blow themselves up and kill innocent human beings. Where are the average wholesome Muslims when these extremists use the Muslim or Islamic name to practice their terror? Where are the quality practicing Muslim LEADERS at when these extremists tarnish their religion with terror? Are they "terror-ified" to stand up and denounce these idiots?

Let me say this. If Christians, Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Quakers, etc, etc, threw temper tantrums every time a journalist, cartoon, or comedian poked fun at their religion, we as a whole would have been annihilated a thousand times over already. This is non sense at its finest right here, ignorance at its bliss. "Oh someone poked fun at my religion so I am going to KILL someone else"! Well that is what they are doing right now. Ladies and gentlemen, that is what these Muslim extremist groups have been doing for quite some time. I'll ask this again. Why can’t we see any of these wholesome regular like you and I Muslims stand up and say anything? Well, I'll take that back, some of the Muslims in Denmark believe this isn’t something to get worked up about. Thank you, thank you for those few who see it that way. Shame on every other practicing Muslim/Islamic human being who will cry a river over a cartoon yet won't say a SINGLE WORD when Muslim/Islamic extremists kill hundreds or thousands of individuals around the world on a weekly basis. Shame on those who are silenced then.

This is what I hate about the public as a whole. We get "Pat Robertson" on someone. This is why we will fail. We fail because we form gangs, I mean RELIGIONS and as a result, those members push away anyone else who is not involved with their religion or who practices another religion. Having a belief joins people, having a religion pushes people away. Most religions share the same type of simple steps in being a better person, yet we still ignore those steps and proceed to ridicule, prosecute, mane, or even kill someone because they have a different religion. The word I’m looking for here is hum hum……over righteousness. These extremist groups walk around like mini gods judging who should live and who should die.

In the end, it’s funny how a cartoon involving Muhammad and a bomb can destroy everything and bring these individuals back to ignorant simpletons, running around on a path of destruction. Funny how the cartoonists were asked to draw Muhammad as they saw him and someone created what they felt Muhammad and the Muslims were all about. Instead of acting stupid like they are now, these Muslims should stand up and say we need to educate. Amazing how we as a whole have grown more and more sensitive about anything and everything. GROW UP. What's with some people and their damn religion thinking that if someone pokes fun at it, they as a result can justify killing people, let alone those who aren't even involved. GROW UP.

As history shows us, it has always been Aces over Kings

This post was edited by havananights on Feb 08, 2006.

I only have a moment...which is good, or you guys could once again be subjected to some of the longest posts in the history of the NAO. *wipes brow*

I haven't seen the cartoon...I should still go back and read this thread in it's entirety...and I am fast falling asleep. But I do think it worth briefly mentioning that from what little knowledge I have of the religion of Islam, it's prophet Mohammed, was actually a fairly open-minded sort of fellow. He, to my knowledge, was a proponent of women's rights, among other things. Although, I could be wrong.

So, if that knowledge of mine is correct, then I have two statements to follow this with:

1) Like my Dad, the minister, says about most Christians: "I like Christ, I just don't like his fan club." (This coming from a minister--> one of the few, IMHO who has his head in the right place...) You know how rumors get started, and if you go back to the source, the person will say: "That isn't what I said at all!?" "Lost in Translation"....and all that.

2) You know the Islamic faith has persecuted one of its own sects, the mystical branch of Islam: Sufism...for centuries upon centuries. Something about just not liking it when people find out they can go directly to the "Source" without all the mumbo-jumbo in the church pew, or on the prayer mat, with a supposedly all-knowing human source in the front of the room. Those poor Sufis. They are Muslim as well, but, to my knowledge, they are so lost in ecstasy that they don't have time to be running around having jihads. Just spinning and spinning and spinning...A good place to be, if you ask me...

And you know, as null pointed out, it's way more likely that the average Muslim could care less. The radical ones are always going to be more vocal. I'm not sure what that says about me.............*falls asleep*

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Feb 09, 2006.

I haven't seen the cartoon...

I had the peasure of doing so yesterday. If you really enjoy them (and dont mind taking chances with yourt life) I recomend getting a shirt ;-)

Take a Look- Funny!
Muhammad Shirts

was actually a fairly open-minded sort of fellow. He, to my knowledge, was a proponent of women's rights, among other things. Although, I could be wrong.

From my brief understanding of the man, that is contrary to what I know and to what their holy books blatantly state.

Muhammad, quite frankly, was an bad guy.

According to Muhammad- Hell is mostly inhabited by women.

Want to know some interesting facts:
Satan lives in the upper nostril at night
Playing chess is evil
non-muslims have seven intestines
You will loose your eyes if you pray looking upward
The sun sets in mucky water
Satan urinates in the ears of those who fall asleep during prayer
Yawning comes from Hell
Dogs are evil and should be slaughtered

>>>Courtousy of your local Islamic scriptures<<<

Here some facts from the 'holy' Koran:

• Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them. (2:191)

• Fight and slay the pagans (translation: that's us) seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem. (9:5)

• Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers...(5:34)

• ...strike off the heads of the disbelievers...[make a] wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives [for ransom] (947:4)

[treatment of disbelievers]...garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19).

The Koran also instructs Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and the feet of the unbelievers (5:34), fight unbelievers until no other religion except Islam remains. (3:85)

Given these basic teachings of Islam there is little reason to be surprised at what the Muslim world does.

Ohh yea...But its a religion of Peace!!!

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

This post was edited by Hardballkid on Feb 09, 2006.

Hmmm. I don't know where it was that I read that Mohammed was open-minded about women...but I remember thinking, well there are a lot of 'Christians' who seem to be very confused about what Jesus really wanted them do, so I figured the same could have happened to Mohammed. Misunderstanding is rampant. Not that I am refuting what you put up here, because I'm not. I can't.........You see, I haven't read the Koran. Something tells me that I should, just so I can know for myself.

So, I am taking your words to heart, and will try to procure myself a copy of the Koran for my perusal.

As far as what I said about some Christians misunderstanding what Jesus wanted them to do....let me explain, so that I don't inadvertently get "crucified".

I am in a hurry, so all I could find was the passage in Luke. I know it exists as well in Matthew, and probably Mark and John. Since I am not a biblical scholar (my Pop is...and he has studied comparitive religions, so might be of assistance on the Koran...), and I don't personally profess to be a Christian (leaning more toward Hinduism or Buddhism), I am ONLY quoting. But here is what it says after Jesus tells the crowd the parable about sowing seeds that ends in: "If you have ears to hear, then hear." The rest of the passage is thus:
"His disciples asked him what this parable meant, and he said,

'It has been granted to you to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but the others have only parables, so that they may look but see nothing, hear but understand nothing.' - Luke 8: 9,10

*aside* I cannot believe that I just quoted a Bible passage. O_O.

Wow, there is a first for everything. :D Just don't plan on it happening again, because I'm really more drawn to Hinduism and Buddhism. ;p

At any rate, my point being that there are so many people who distort the Christian faith. They don't really follow what Jesus taught. They see what they 'think' they see in the Bible, and they hear, but they aren't hearing the 'seed'. They aren't hearing the word of God, which is the 'seed', which is 'Amen', or also 'Aum' and 'Om'. It is the "All", the thing that connects us to one another. If they aren't hearing that, it is much more likely that they are not hearing the true word, and are only hearing a "parable". And parables are fine, but they tend to do a little obscuration of the truth, simply because people don't always "get" the parable the way that it might truly have been intended. Which is pretty much what Jesus says in that passage.

And conversely, the core of what some people in the Islamic faith believe may have more to do with their own personal faith, than what the Koran tells them. I know quite a few Muslims who don't behave as if they have taken to heart what you quoted, and who likely would not be offended by the cartoons about Mohammed. They just don't think it is that important. But who knows. So many things get distorted and twisted "in the name of God".

I mean, I am guessing, so don't hold me to it, but I suspect that as far as Hinduism, there isn't anything in the Rig Veda, or any other text that specifically says that a woman should lie down and commit suttee (hope I am spelling that right) after her husband dies. I could be wrong.

It sounds to me as if your wonderfully worded diatribe, because you did make me laugh with the whole 'camel piss' thing, and just the general way you worded your post, has inadvertently become a motivating force for me to read not only the Koran, but the Rig Veda, the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible, and anything else that I have neither read at all (in the case of the Koran), nor read in its entirety (in the case of the latter three). Plus there is so much about Hinduism and Buddhism, which greatly interest me that I have not read. I just finished reading the article that Linda Johnsen, a student of the now deceased Swami Rama, wrote about the inherent ecumenical nature of Hinduism.

Wouldn't it be nice, Hardballkid (and darn it, I can't remember your name, I'm sorry, you did tell me...), if all of the major world religions were ecumenical? I just keep thinking of the acronym that ravers use: PLUR. Peace, love, understanding, respect. (And just because I don't want to use 'X', doesn't mean I can't hang out with ravers, but that is beside the point, and another digression on my part...*sighs*)

Thanks for the heads up, as well as for the quotes. And of course, your exasperated humor. It is refreshing to see someone blend just enough humor into their diatribes to make it palatable. Kind of like making bitter melon taste sweet. I found what you wrote quite interesting, and am inclined to do more research. And now I must absolutely go do my laundry. Wish me well, my head is a little stuffy.

P.S. I did find the T-shirts funny. "Mohammed Ali"....hahhahha!!! Everyone should be able to laugh at themselves, even Mohammed. Don't you think? Although I expect that my friend Joe's feelings would be deeply hurt if I were to wear that shirt. I don't think he'd shoot me though....he's not that kinda guy.

My mind is made up...not like my bed, which is a mess.

This post was edited by rosyxxx on Feb 10, 2006.

Wouldn't it be nice, Hardballkid (and darn it, I can't remember your name, I'm sorry, you did tell me...), if all of the major world religions were ecumenical? I just keep thinking of the acronym that ravers use: PLUR. Peace, love, understanding, respect.

In other words, we may not all be Catholics or Methodists, Muslim or Lutherans, etc., but we all worship the same God; but we do it in 'our own way'; so naturally, because we are sincere about our love & worship, we can be sure God DOES hear us because God is love & if we love each other, then certainly God must love us.

Sorry Rosy but thats an idealogy I cant go along with.

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them." - Eph. 5:11

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” I Jn. 4:1

Unity is used throughout the Bible, though too. Two becoming one flesh (Matthew19:5), intimacy with God (John 17), in faith (Ephesians 4:13), in knowledge (Ephesians 4:13), of the Spirit (Ephesians 4:3), in mind andthought about Christ (1 Corinthians 1:10-12), one body (Ephesians4:3-6) and the list goes on. God values unity for a Godly cause. He wants His people to be on the same page. This does not mean God does not want differing opinions or viewpoints (Acts 15:39), but He does want us to agree on the core of a relationship with him. The scriptures point toward an agreement (from the Bible) of who God is and how to bein a relationship with Him.

Ecumenicalism, however, is less about finding the core of agreement as it is about compromising the core. Everything becomes negotiable. Opinions and convictions become interchangeable. The Bible becomes a nuisance. Unity at any price is not unity at all.

Throughout the Old Testament, the Israelites greatest threat was not necessarily converting to a new religion, but fusing another local belief system with Yahweh worship(Exodus 20:3). Jewish theology and conversion was muddled bysynthesized ideologies.

You see, to ride the ecumenical band wagon, one must throw Truth overboard. To agree with ecumenism is to agree to confusion. God is not the author of confusion. He is Truth. There is no error in Him, and He calls no one to preach a mixture, or to join with it.

The ecumenical movement wants nothing to do with the Christ of the Bible.

As a Christian...its not about being accepted by people...it is about being acceptable with God.

I understand the desire for peace on Earth, however, religious pluralism is not an option.

And now I must absolutely go do my laundry.

As well as I. I woke up with a stomach flu this morning (which caused me to miss my Jujitsu practice :-( so I must wash my bed-spread and sheets now.

Hardballkid (and darn it, I can't remember your name, I'm sorry, you did tell me...)

It's Elijah by the way. And yes, it's Biblical ;-)

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

%u201CBeloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.%u201D I Jn. 4:1

Only one reflection about this. Let me state to begin with that I am a Catholic Christian, so in theory I should be the most conservative about Christianity and all the other things that people think about the Catholics (most things are sort of wrong however).

Well, while I might/might not believe in every sort of thing written in the Bible - so I am not saying that what you state is absolutely untrue, not proved or whatever else, at the same time I always wonder "Well how can we be so sure that there is only 1 God?". Wait, before accusing me of blasphemy, let me explain what I mean by that :P The Christians, and even moreso the Catholics, believe of course in only one God, who is one and three (sorry, I don't know how to call that "property" in English, but what I mean is that in the figure of God there are three figures: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost).

Anyway, so far so good, right? All the Christians believe in only one single God, and they believe that He will save them, and all the other things we all know. But there are different religions; there are different Gods according to the different religions, and I do not necessarily think that those who are not Christians will go to hell, or whatever else you might replace it with. Why? Because they definitely have other Gods - the Muslim have Allah - who preach basically the same thing: believe in me, and you'll be saved.

For this reason, I don't necessarily think that there is only one single God. I mean, there is only one God for the Christians, but this doesn't necessarily mean that other people will be condemned because they are not Christians. I understand that for some this could be at the verge of blasphemy, but it is definitely very rational: I mean, how can we just say that our God is the only God for every single human being? And what if we were wrong? What if the only God was Allah? No, I believe that whoever is Christian will be saved by the God he believes in, and whoever belongs to other religions will be saved by their own God.

With this said, while I might go to church every now and then, and while I'd like to believe that there is something else after life, at the same time I think that religions were born only to give answers to people. But once Darwin started to explain his evolution theory (accepted everywhere), religion started to lose its meaning. I don't necessarily believe that at the beginning it was Adam and Eve. I believe that we come from primates! The Church doesn't have a position about it, also because they have no way to explain the evolution theories taking into account God. Unless of course they said that God created the world, and that's about it... or maybe that he put some bacteria in the water or whatnot.

Also, religion was good to give a moral guidance to man. Christianity says to not have sex before marriage: how many people do you think respect that? I am the first one who admits to have not respected that. Why? Well, because morality values are changing, and we cannot accept something that could have been valid centuries ago. In 1800 girls had to be virgin until marriage, or nobody would have taken them; men did not necessarily have to wait until marriage.

Religion also says to never wish to have the woman/man of another person: how many people we know are or have always respected that? I have never cheated on Neil and never will, not only because I love him, but because it is immoral. If you don't love a person anymore, you break up with him/her before fucking someone else.

"Do not kill". Come on, do you really think that a religion has to impose that on you? Killing would be bad, wrong and immoral. People wouldn't do it even if religion didn't exist. Why? Because of course there are laws, and there would be consequences. And besides, those who kill are often the same people who go to church. An example? Take some states of the USA, or take some states of Africa (eg Ghana). They have death penalty over there. And they have killed several people. Now, in the Old Testament, there is that kind of law, but didn't the Lord say not to kill? This means that all those who kill other people are hypocrites. They go to church, but then if the law is to kill someone who has killed another person, they would do it.

Anyway, I am ranting here. But Hardball, I hope I have explained you why I believe that your position, so strong towards religion is wrong. Oh and on a side note, I wouldn't say that the Muslims (even the integralist) are so scarier than the Catholic/Christian integralist. Does everybody remember what they did during the Crusades? Or maybe should I refresh your memory explaining how they impaled and killed in horrid ways those who did not believe in Christ? Was that the famous love that Christ himself had preached? I think not.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".