Reading Current Events

Feb 20, 2006 10:51 # 41947

null posts about...

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

If you write on a newspaper how Bush sucks and how you wish he died or that he was killed, I am quite sure you might have some kind of trouble afterwards.

Funny enough, this kind of stuff already happens.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Feb 20, 2006 20:45 # 41952

baexcell *** replies...

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

?% | 1

If I read the article correctly, the issue here was not entirely because of what she said, but also because of the fact that she identified herself as a government employee. If she had written the letter as a private citizen, I don't think there would have been such an outcry since I read letters as bad or worse everytime I read my paper's editorial section. While some will say this shouldn't make a difference, I have to disagree. Working for the government is like working for any other organization. When you do so, you have a responsibility when acting as an agent of that organization to act in a way which is not detrimental to the organization or the reputation thereof. Because she identified herself as a VA nurse (a government agent), the action taken by her employer is not surprising, though possibly slightly an overreaction.

Feb 12, 2006 10:58 # 41806

eljefe *** replies...

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

?% | 1

The offending cartoon has been around for several months, only now recieving notariaty as extremist muslims begin to riot violently (about 10 deaths since 10th of February) and commit acts of arson. These cartoons have been reprinted numerious times, so based on your logic we need to kick Scandanavia, Belgium, France, Germany, the UK, and the USA, and just about every other country in Europe out of the Olympics.
Wikipedia

These are the offending cartoons

From the same wikipedia article above:

The modern, secular society is rejected by some Muslims. They demand a special position, insisting on special consideration of their own religious feelings. It is incompatible with contemporary democracy and freedom of speech, where you must be ready to put up with insults, mockery and ridicule. It is certainly not always attractive and nice to look at, and it does not mean that religious feelings should be made fun of at any price, but that is of minor importance in the present context. [...] we are on our way to a slippery slope where no-one can tell how the self-censorship will end. That is why Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten has invited members of the Danish editorial cartoonists union to draw Muhammad as they see him. [...]

I particularly like this quote by Cox and Forkum (granted they are conservative political cartoonists, but)

In other words, let's not go "too far" and openly criticize those who would kill us for exercising our freedom to criticize Islam -- we'll only make it worse! Yeah, right. And let's make western woman wear burqas so they won't provoke rapists.

How far are you willing to allow free speech to errode? Free speech is free speech, there's no inbetweens for an inbetween becomes limited speech.

It is in the Danish constitution that "Anyone is entitled to in print, writing and speech to publish his or hers thoughts, but yet under responsibility provided by the courts. Censorship and other preventive measures can never again be introduced.". So why are we attacking the Country as a whole for not taking actions it cannot legally take? Lets make them apoligize for something they can't control and then ask them to set a new system of repressions and controls to prevent future occurrances. That'd be great, cause now the Danish are stuck outside the olympics and the EU (which would actually excite me, but its not me). If they do censor, they have to throw out their constitution and bam, Orwell's bad dream gets another foothold.

Criticism and satire are legitimate forms of thinking. One should take in all sides (offensive or not) when discussing a topic, but you know what, screw that. Who wants to end up like Theo van Gough? Obviously we are allowed to bash christianity and its bad sides (see inquisition, anti-gay), but not Islam, oh no. Lets just ignore the unpleasantries of Islam and treat them with the respect they don't even considder giving us.

As if the radicals need these cartoons as an excuse to attack the Olympics. It's the fucking Olympics, it's been bombed for less (somethign it or any participatory country didn't do or say, see 1996 bombings).

And by the way turns out that the burned (not burning, the burning had finished) Quoran was a copy caught in a house fire and was left outside a mosque by a muslim so it could recieve a proper 'burial' so to speak. There was a note that flew away in the wind. Naturally noone hears about this. I'll need to find my link however, so I won't be offended if you take this fact with a grain of salt.

Fond memories

This post was edited by eljefe on Feb 12, 2006.

Feb 18, 2006 02:35 # 41921

havananights ** replies...

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

93% | 3

"Now class lets give a big thumbs down to the Muslim cleric".

I understand some individuals on this board do not find a few of my let it all out, balls to the wall, Gonzo type writing as excellent post material. I on the other hand am my biggest fan.... (Patting self on back, lol) Believe me, there are posters on here who may find my posts biased in nature. Bias is a cloudy word, and writers from all walks of life received that label time and again. Opinions are like assho1es, everyone has one. In my opinion my style is like the Forrest Gump box of chocolates quote.....you never know what you're gonna get.

With this board, we all may stomp our feet down and profess what we feel about whatever it is we feel passionately for, I love creativity and various opinions. I am grateful for not being told what I can or cannot say, do, eat, feel, etc.

Recently, well I'll take that back----->for quite some time now the Muslim world has encountered their fair share of flak. I'll admit, and you the reader will see through my writings that I am not a fan of the Muslim nation as a whole. Do I hate Muslims? By all means NO. Hate is a strong word many people throw around mercilessly. Hate creates violence and untruths. I may dislike many of their views or followers, however I do not hate. Every religious group has their share of "step children".

This brings me to my point, and I'll make it brief. When Muslim cleric's call for a million dollar reward/bounty on the Danish cartoonists, this has gone too far. These Muslims who are escalating the situation have fallen and bumped their heads with this one. As time passes, I am left with a feeling of pity. Why? I pity this religious group because they seem to have the most ignorant people who love to weave the word into their own extreme interpretation. The Muslim group has suppressed their people for so long with these twisted beliefs, a monster has been created as a result.

I may receive flak for previous posts, and as a result my rating may go down on certain writings where I just let it all hang. Yet, I'm not calling for death. I don't find cartoons poking fun at Christians or Jesus funny. At the same time I understand that every person on this earth will be judged one by one in some final way, and I in return do not need to kill the cartoonist who poked fun of Jesus. This isn't even an eye for an eye.

The Muslim world should be looking more at themselves and their "step child" extremists and be ashamed at what they currently see. Wrong is wrong.

As history shows us, it has always been Aces over Kings

This post was edited by havananights on Feb 18, 2006.

Mar 15, 2006 12:49 # 42283

lookeast *** replies...

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

?% | 2

Andromacha is upset at Danish cartoons lampooning Islam, blames all Danes for that, calls the prime minister an 'asshole' and wishes Denmark dead.

I pay tribute here to the cartoons for they _ and Andromacha's strident reaction to them _ show how we in the west can get things very, very right!

We can buy media whose content is so offensive, so crude it gets Andromacha upset enough to commit a wild, angry rant to the blogosphere triggering a good discussiuon.

If Andromacha lived in, say, Syria would she be 'upset' at regular tv broadcasts there demonizing Jews? Would she vote Syria out of the Olympics? Call the president an 'asshole'?

Perhaps, yes, for she writes under an assumed name.

Would Syria let her rant stand on the Internet? Unlikely.

Would Andromacha march with 75,000 angry Syrians through Damascus demanding those anti-Jewish TV shows be pulled off the air immediately? Not, if she wants to live a little longer!

The Danish cartoons are in a narrow sense about Islam. More broadly, they and the protests they have triggered are about how unfree many people are in the world today.

May Day parades in Moscow and across Eastern Europe used to feature tens of thousands 'spontaneously' praising the working class, communism and international solidarity every May 1.

Where are they now? Well, the moment they could they voted with their feet fleeing from the Organized Religion that was the Soviet Union.

Iraq is a mess because Shiites and Sunnis are locked into Organized Religion, killing each other in astounding numbers. (Have you noticed how low the US casualty toll is?) Iraqis don't care about Americans. They carry huge guns but will leave some day. It's 'the other' _ shiite or sunni _ who is the problem.

This is uniquely cruel manifestation of Organized Religion: your country is invaded so you irgnore the invader, but kill your neighbor for that bastard is the wrong kind of Muslim.

Before we wish Denmark off the map, let's celebrate diversity _ a fragile, upsetting asset.

Thanks for your contribution, Andromacha!

Lookeast

Mar 15, 2006 20:40 # 42287

andromacha *** replies...

In reply to Lookeast

Before we wish Denmark off the map, let's celebrate diversity _ a fragile, upsetting asset.

Thanks for your contribution, Andromacha!

Lookeast

There are several ways to celebrate diversity, and being insulting or offensive to some other people or cultures is NOT, and I repeat IS NOT something acceptable.

I stand by what I said, even though I can partially understand that the Danish did not mean to create the mess that they created with those t-shirts. I also think though that in a period of international crisis - and I don't think that people could argue the fact that this is a moment of crisis, at least generally speaking - it is not exactly a smart move to act in such an irresponsible way.

Since I am European, I do understand the position of Denmark and those t-shirts, but I cannot accept that when the Muslims living in Denmark felt offended by them, the Christian Danish said that that was Denmark, and if they didn't like it they could as well go. And, unless several European newspapers are biased, they did say something along those lines. Now, you cannot just say that. I mean, those Muslims are Danish themselves. They believe in a different God, their women don't have the same rights that we have, but I do think that we should respect them for what they are.

I am a woman. I can imagine, only imagine, what it might be like to be constantly beaten up by your husband, and not having freedom. I would not tolerate living like that, but for the way I was raised. I mean, we Europeans, or anybody living in the West world, have been raised with freedom of any kind (aside from the African Americans, who had to fight to gain what they have), so I cannot conceive living in different conditions.
But that's their culture, and we cannot just force them to change. It would not be fair. Do you think you would like to have someone coming to your house telling you that it is mandatory for you to wear pink briefs/boxers? I think you wouldn't be so enthusiastic to accept that.

While I cannot imagine nor understand why a woman would deliberately choose to live in such conditions, or people to be without rights, at the same time I think that we can't just go in there and offend them or impose the western way by force.

Lately I have read some books for my thesis. They are about colonization in Africa, and in particular in Ghana. Well, Ghana was at first colonized by the Arabs. They were called by the Ghanaian "predators", because they went in there, and they obliged the Africans to take their religion, and accept all the rules imposed by them. But sadly enough this wasn't even the worst thing. Europeans came after them. "Destroyers", that's how they called them. They perpetrated horrendous crimes: they raped women, they did horrid things to them, and not lastly they imposed Christianity on them. These books I have read tell about this horrific reality, and I can't say that I did not feel ashamed of what the Whites have done, the crimes we have committed. If you want to know exactly what I am talking about, please refer to Ayi Kwei Armah's "Two Thousand Seasons". It's a wonderful book. And yes, that talks about different realities, and how a people can simply destroy another without thinking twice.

I think that after reflecting on what that books tells you, you might agree with me that offending people because of their culture and/or religion is just one of the many ways we have to subdue the others.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Mar 19, 2006 09:20 # 42327

lookeast *** replies...

Re: In reply to Lookeast

96% | 4

Andromacha, I see nothing wrong in insulting and being offensive. The point is NOT to take offense.

I find rap music offensive. And people who don't use deodorant. And excessive cellphone yacking. And packed subways. (Sometimes, when I am really unlucky, I get all of the above together!)
So what to do? Ban bad music? Packed subways? Cellphones? Ask smelly people to apologize?

We only have an 'international crisis' because some people take offense at a cartoon. More correctly: far too many people give far too much meaning to a few drawings that appeared many months ago in a conservative Danish rag that is read by 0.0005% of the world population.

(Frankly, I liked the one showing a suicide bomber arriving in heaven where he is told: 'No! No, more! We are out of virgins!' What a bummer for that guy! Memo to me: what happens if a Muslim woman blows herself up and some random innocent people. Do she get to go to heaven and have a good time virgin males?)

Yes, in Denmark (by the way, I am NOT Danish) Danish Muslims were basically told 'this is Denmark' and if you don't like it, you can go. In other words, you have a choice: If you stay I'll put up with your intolerant, undemocratic religion and you'll put up with my offensive sense of humor, my bad music, my refusal to buy a 1.70 euro stick of deodorant and my packed subways.

Or you leave! Which raises an important question: How many Danish Muslims actually left over the cartoons? Has there been one Muslim guy who came home one day said to his wife: 'Honey, we are outta here! I will not stay one day longer in this godforsaken country! We are off to Saudi Arabia! Or Pakistan. Or Libya. Or North Korea! I'll go to any country where they draw cartoons I like.

Yes, we need to respect Muslim and they need to respect us. We can both leave, yet neither does. You touched on the reason for that when you said you would not stand being beaten by your husband and having no freedom. 'Why would a woman deliberately choose to live in such conditions?' Easy: they don't choose, especially not in Mulsim societies. Women don't have a choice!

I loved the 'predators' and 'destroyers' analogy you told, but be careful not to take responsibility for what 'whites' did centuries ago in Africa. You were not there. And you would not misbehave the way they did. (By the way, I'll read Ayi Kwei Armah's "Two Thousand Seasons").

So is offending people because of their culture and/or religion a form of subjugating them?

Yes, in a benign sort of way, it is. No eyes are being ripped out. No hands are cut off, but being 'offended' can be scary, I think. And what a good thing that is! I'd hate to live in a society where we cannot offend. That would be an odd, unnatural, imbalanced and _ ultimately - intolerant society. I think Danish Muslims are coming to that realization very fast.

All best / Lookeast

Mar 28, 2006 17:24 # 42397

Vladimir * replies...

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

62% | 3

Well, I read about half of all the posts, can't go on any more today, maybe tomorrow(nasty feaver).

Free speech it WAS! I have also seen cartoons and jokes printed for Christians, Jews, Budhists and Satansits in various papers.

Relegion should have no baring what so ever in state politics. No one should have a legal right to force someone to only publish positive or negative articles on any religion.

If someone said or wrote or drew something insulting(not lies, just personal views) to a religion, that CAN NOT be reason to burn a nations flag or dress up like a sucide bomber and encurage violence(incident in UK), cause harm and death to the people of different religion(North Africa, Middle East), or to do anything malicius other than respond maybe in the same way(eye for an eye, not the smartest thing) or BE CIVILISED and expess your disaprovement in a non violent way(both verbal and physical)!

And frankly, if they don't like (mostly)accepted standards of behaviour, they have notting off interest in Europe, US, or any other country that enforces simililar standards!

NOTE: CONTRAVERSIAL! (I wont blame you for flaming me)

So, yes if Islam gets in the way of a civilised society, IT AIN'T WELCOME!

SAME GOES FOR ALL OTHER RELIGIONS!

Sure protest that your religion is under attack, I don't mind.
Burn my country's flag(even if I'm not the greatest patriot in the world), and I want you arested!
Encourage violence, or make a threat of violence, and I want you arested, locked up, and key thrown away!

Europan societies developed their rules, imiggrants as all good guests should respect the rules of the house of their host.

I'm not really up to writing any more, so I'll continue tommorow.
I have a lot more to write here...

Vladimir, a truly happy person!

Mar 28, 2006 21:13 # 42398

andromacha *** throws in her two cents...

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

?% | 1

Burn my country's flag(even if I'm not the greatest patriot in the world), and I want you arested!

Ahem, what about the Danish who burned the Koran in Kopenhavn? Do you think your criteria apply there too, or maybe they are somehow immune to it?

And you know I am Italian, and Catholic. Just so you know that I am not saying things because I am a Muslim, and I feel offended. But I do think that your statements:

Burn my country's flag(even if I'm not the greatest patriot in the world), and I want you arested!
Encourage violence, or make a threat of violence, and I want you arested, locked up, and key thrown away!

seem a little violent, don't you think? Especially for someone who seems to profess to be against violence. They burned Danish flag, the Danish burned their Korans. I think it is equally bad, as the flag and the sacred book are both an important symbol. If anything, the Danish are even more to be blamed. Why? Well, because in Europe we are "civilized", and in theory we should respect other people's beliefs. That doesn't happen in Muslimland. Therefore, they might be more used to such incivil acts, but we definitely have no excuse. Those Danish who burned the Korans have no excuse.

Italy no longer accepts illegal immigrants. Mr. B sink their boats!!!!!!!

Mar 29, 2006 07:17 # 42399

null replies...

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Well, because in Europe we are "civilized", and in theory we should respect other people's beliefs. That doesn't happen in Muslimland.

Wow, that's quite a statement!

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.


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