Reading Current Events

Here, I only want to say how I do appreciate the views of Martin and Null. I think that they probably managed to express with more proper words the exact feelings that I have towards this matter.

Personally, I am not even going to be touched by the opinion of lightyears, because I haven't heard anything more biased than this lately. Either you live in a country that passes only shit on TV to state how the Arabs are bad and the Western people or the Jews are good, or I really don't understand how you can be so blind towards the events which are plaguing (is that the correct verb?) the world today.

Also, I am sorry to say this, but after all the insults you have thrown at me, I can't just keep quiet. And so here I go "I mean how do you think that people here can take you seriously? You write in such an incomprehensible English that it is hard to follow you through your thoughts, right or wrong they may be". I confess that I couldn't keep from laughing out loud for the things you wrote in your post, and my colleagues were here too, and could enjoy your weird ideas too. Nobody here agrees with you. Not only me, but it seems that also the other Naoiies seem to have the same feeling on the matter.

If you don't like open discussions, and you feel like you have to throw insults at people who don't think the same things that you believe, maybe Netalive is not the right place for you. And quite frankly, I don't give a damn about what you think of me. You don't even know me, and I am not touched to say the least by the dumb things you have written about me. As long as I know that they are not true, and as long as other people know this, then you can say whatever you want about me. But I reserve the right to throw out here how stupid, shallow and ignorant I think you are by such affirmations you are making.

TO MARTIN AND NULL: thanks for your contribution. Martin, it's nice to see you're back, and it's nice to see you're supporting my claims too. I hope I will be seeing more of you around here from now onwards, and I hope we will "settle" the old thingie, unless you have already set it :P

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Imagined facts or fact taken out of context are meaningless
now imagine you live in israel, along comes a super power and chucks you out, so you wonder aimlesslly from contry to contry for 2000 years hoping to find some ware to settle, but alas your expeld pogromed masacard , life is made unbarable for you, you know some of your breathren or ekeing out a meger existence in the land of israel, that is vertually uninhibited,and you know the land has becoume inhospitable and desolate, but you deside to go back and cultivate it any thing rather them live under constant persicution.
In israel there is very few people but in time you cultivate the land and you make it flourish you build inferstructure, and jobs, and along come arabs and wish to benefit from this newlly flourishing contry that you so lovinglly revived, all you ask of them is to live with you in peace. That is closer to the truth
and the land the jews lived on before 1967 they purchased so cut the crap about stolen land.
And as for the idea of israel existing some wear else.
Why, why should israel have to be moved, the arabs have 22 contrys of wich to live in, israel has always been the jewish home land, hears an idea how about population transfer,
in 1948 when the arab contrys expeled most of thire jews stealing thire posessions and home,many arived with nothing in israel, they gave us our jews, so now we should give them thire arabs.
The jewish home land has always been israel, we did not just pick an emply black whole
we chose the home land of our ancesters, what justification do the arabs have to that land? Oh yeah thire ancestors stole it from ours.
I thought you'd aprove of finger pointing as you do it oh so well.
Iran iraq and afganistan, attacked for lesser reasons? Well lets see oh yeah afganistan was that not the contry from were alqueida with the help of the talaban arranged for planes to fly into buildings in america and kill thousands of inocent civilians, hardly a reason for the us attack
araq was invading other contrys hurting its own people and threatning to hurt alot more people, no jutification?
Iran does not even bear speaking about.
These contrys if they stop invading each other and stop threatning the world would not be attacked.
I'l say it again if the arabs put down thire wheapons, there would be peace, if the israeli put down thire wheapons there would be no israel.
I 1967 all the arab contrys planed an atack on israel, in an aim of driving the jews into the sea
israel had a right to self deffence and it exersized that right
in that war it won back its teritories wich the arabs had bean ocupying, and it took over all of the sinie
it declared it would give back all the teritory it won for peace
the arab contrys refused and in 1973 attempted again to destroy israel, now eventually egypt agreed to peace with israel and so israel gave them back the sinie, it offered to do the same with other teritories it won on conditions of peace but the arabs have refused.
A terorist organisation is just that if it targets americans, english, australians, spanish, or other arabs, but when they target israelis then thats okay they are just religios institutions(do i detect a hint of anti sematism here.)
They target inocent civilians, that makes them terrorists
jew have israel as a home land arabs who call themselves palastinians, already have a home land jorden. But if thery must have another one they have 22 arab contries, thet them build another nation thire.
Israeli life is equal to the lives of other peoples
ther is no justification for diliberatly killing 9 inocent people, the only thing that makes you find justification in that is that those 9 people happend to be jewish israelis
israel neads nueclear wheapons for deterance becouse it is at constant threat from its naighbours(who have tryed repeatedlly to wipe her out), other contrys are not
and about you last point the land you casll palstine was only a home to jews, it was stolen from jews, and it changed hand over the malenias but its rightfull owners was the jews.
The whole of palastine included jorden, but the british gave the arabs that part of the land(the palastinan state)
now a point to the othe replys on this post.
You hold very anti israel views and claim it is me who is not being open minded, look at historical fact,(not what you whant it to be but what it is)
as a jew and an israeli jew, i can tell you we have been defending our position for many years, with far smarter more dangerous folk than you, im pretty sure i can handle it, your ignorance of the conflict is astounding not to mention blind support for the arabs that call them selves palastinians.

Imagined facts or fact taken out of context are meaningless

Then it is probably not best to start with a fiction.

Jews wandering the desert for 2000 years after being chucked out of where by a superpower?

Well lets see oh yeah afganistan was that not the contry from were alqueida with the help of the talaban arranged for planes to fly into buildings in america and kill thousands of inocent civilians,

No it wasn't. That was Saudi Arabia.

araq was invading other contrys hurting its own people and threatning to hurt alot more people, no jutification?

Iraq wasn't invading anyone (you can't use the previous Gulf War as justification). If hurting one's own people was a good justification the US would be invading people all over the world. Hell, the US is hardly spotless on human rights issues.

These contrys if they stop invading each other and stop threatning the world would not be attacked.

And if they stopped being stupid enough to harbour valuable economic resources - er, I mean terrorists.

ther is no justification for diliberatly killing 9 inocent people, the only thing that makes you find justification in that is that those 9 people happend to be jewish israelis

If there's a reason to hate Jews then by constantly reading into the text more than is there is a 'woe is me' vein is certainly going to do it. My sympathies rapidly diminish the more times you repeat crap like this.

I really do not have the ethusiasm to tackle the rest of this post. But I must reiterate that you really need to lay off the 'anti-semite' accusations. It really doesn't get you any sympathy at all.

Okay, before I get into detail, can we try to agree on some basic rules of communication, discussion and exchange of opinions?
- Do you agree there is no "absolute truth"?
- Do you agree "historical facts" are a matter of standpoint?
- Do you agree there can be different views on the same topic?
- Do you agree this is not about winning or losing?
- Do you agree we try to reply to each others posts and are not adding conclusions and false imputations to our replies?

Imagined facts or fact taken out of context are meaningless

Strange..., whatever I say seems to be meaningless, pointless and matters little. How come you feel obliged to reply then?

now imagine you live in israel, along comes a super power and chucks you out, so you wonder aimlesslly from contry to contry for 2000 years
[...]
That is closer to the truth and the land the jews lived on before 1967 they purchased so cut the crap about stolen land.

I hate to ask so provocative, but did YOU wonder aimlessly from country to country for 2000 years? Or did even your direct ancestors? I wonder, where your true roots may be, but I'm almost sure its NOT in Israel, cause that's almost impossible.
Let me get this thing straight once more.
Being a Jew - sorry, for the misspelling in my earlier posts, played too much "Ultima", I guess - being a Jew describes your religion, what you believe in, but NOT your nationality or your ethnological roots. Being a Jew does not automatically make you an Israeli or allows you to have any demands towards land or nationalities. And I find it more and more absurd to mix up your national demands with a that of a religion. Or, the other way round, making religious demands political, national ones. That's, what you're doing, both directions, changing position whenever it suits you. So please, decide, are you talking to me as a Jew, or as an Israeli? Once you decide, stick to it. May be we can get some things straight then.

Why, why should israel have to be moved, the arabs have 22 contrys of wich to live in, israel has always been the jewish home land, hears an idea how about population transfer,

I didn't say Israel should be moved. I did ask the question, if it wasn't perhaps a more peaceful solution to have Israel FOUNDED somewhere else. Things are as they are, the mistake has been made. We all have to live with the consequences.
And btw, where is the homeland of Catholics? Is it Italy or the Vatican? Guess its getting pretty busy there, if all Catholics of the world demand to live there. Mmmh.. may be they can occupy Spain, France, Germany for themselves, too, the non-Catholics could live in Sweden or England, Poland or Russia. There are enough Non-Catholic nations surrounding them, let them live there! Where is the homeland of Buddhism? Nepal or India? Or even the Islam? Where is its homeland?
A religion may have its clerical center, where the most important artefacts are stored, but I can think of no other believers but Jews to demand a homeland for themselves. Tell me, if I'm wrong! Ok, its pointless anyway...

in 1948 when the arab contrys expeled most of thire jews stealing thire posessions and home,many arived with nothing in israel, they gave us our jews, so now we should give them thire arabs.

So you have no problem with doing *exactly* the same thing you are accusing half the world of? Expelling people for their ancestry? I call that fascistic. Seems to me you got no problem with anything, that has ever been done to Jews in the last 2000 years. You always use it as justification to pay the same thing back to your by paranoia imagined enemies.

The jewish home land has always been israel, we did not just pick an emply black whole we chose the home land of our ancesters, what justification do the arabs have to that land? Oh yeah thire ancestors stole it from ours.

You want to drag me into a "race-discussion" to accuse me of Anti-Semitism in the next step? No, I wont walk into that trap. Fact is the Arab history books read somewhat different. And there is no reason at all, why I should believe your version or any other without discussion about it. History books, especially national ones, are the very last source for truths, they are subjective versions of things happening. Only by learning about ALL version of the same incident you might be able to make up your own mind about the true events. And even then there is the obvious danger, that the losers and the dead were not able to write down their versions, which might perhaps bring a completely different light to things.

Iran iraq and afganistan, attacked for lesser reasons? Well lets see oh yeah afganistan was that not the contry from were alqueida with the help of the talaban arranged for planes to fly into buildings in america and kill thousands of inocent civilians, hardly a reason for the us attack. araq was invading other contrys hurting its own people and threatning to hurt alot more people, no jutification? Iran does not even bear speaking about.

OMG... sometimes I'm asking myself, whether or not you're actually believing yourself, what you're writing down here, or if you just trying to provoke. Even the U.S. people understood meanwhile they had been deceived about the true reasons. You are even more right winged than I thought or Israelis must be living under some very shady rocks, while being busy with writing their own history books. Those statements don't need no other comments, go, search the politics forum, if you want to add your enlighting comments somewhere.

I'l say it again if the arabs put down thire wheapons, there would be peace, if the israeli put down thire wheapons there would be no israel.

Simply wrong (I was going to say "outright bullshit"). There is something like a unity of nations, which has the might and the right to interfere with injustice against peoples. They are not always doing things as best as they could, granted, but no peoples would be annihilated under their eyes. And before you ask, they do not interfere now to full extent, because its Israel, who is the aggressor in the judgement of impartial nations, but its difficult to approach Israel, because you guys start whining about Anti-Semitism right away. And now again please explain why exactly Israel is ignoring UN resolutions.

A terorist organisation is just that if it targets americans, english, australians, spanish, or other arabs, but when they target israelis then thats okay they are just religios institutions(do i detect a hint of anti sematism here.)

Really, I'm getting sick of it. You Jews are twisting and turning everything against yourself, always suffering, always whining and when everything else fails complaining about anti-Semitism. And finally using that as justification to behave like seigniors from the Dark Age. Hello? Anyone told you this is 2006?
When and where did I say its okay to target Israelis? I said those are religious organisations to begin with. When and where did I make a difference between nations? I was talking about Hamas and Fatah and their roots and what MADE them terrorists, NOT about their targets.

They target inocent civilians, that makes them terrorists

Wrong. They decide to fight for something they believe in, just like you. They look at their means, what impact they can make, at what costs. They decide to turn violent. And only THEN they decide for targets. The word "terrorist" did effectively not exist in public language before 9/11. Its so convenient to call everything and everyone a terrorist, who does not fit into your picture of the world. Problem is there CAN be different pictures of the world. What makes them terrorists is not the actual killing, but the inability accept the existence of different ways of life on equal footing. And that counts for more people than Arabs...

your ignorance of the conflict is astounding not to mention blind support for the arabs that call them selves palastinians.

Want another example for you twisting the truth? No one ever wording his opinion here and in previous posts on that topic here over the years could be accused of "ignorance of the conflict". And "blind support for Palestinians".... well.... what can I say. May be you have to be that way to keep yourself in the mood of belonging to the minority, the suffering, the discriminated, to justify your own crimes. May be it works for yourself, but you're not making friends with statements like this, you'll not even find sympathizers among your own people with it, because you're disqualifying your and your position's credibilty.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Wow. Your ability to talk round the subject and ignore the facts in front of your very eyes is amazing. You completely eliminate the need to respond to counterarguments by not even bothering to read them in the first place!
Hats off to you, and keep up the good work. As long as people like you have a voice, the war profiteers will never go to bed hungry.

Consider yourself hugged.

This post was edited by null on Apr 27, 2006.

Netalivers, lets not turn this into a flame war. Tone it down a bit. Insults have no place in this argument, no matter how wrong someone might be.

Lightyears, you need to open your eyes and see the other side of the fence. You let emotions lead your argument, and emotions need no logic. I implore you to look at this from a logical standpoint. Israel and the surrounding countries have been duking it out since day 1, and you expect us all to believe Israel has done absolutely positively nothing wrong to induce this hatred?

If there is one thing you must admit, it is that wars are not fought for absolutely no reason at all. So what then, is the reason for them to attack you? And once you have answered that, tell us all why it is Israel is justified for doing the exact same thing to them?

I respect your right to post here, and I respect your opinion. However, that is where my respect ends. You're not admitting defeat by looking at alternate views. It is no wonder you feel the way you do. I'm sure you have been spoonfed this view of yours entire life.

Try to look at things from an alternate perspective. Martin's scenario is an excellent one, in fact.

If the world should blow itself up,the last audible voice would be an expert saying it can't be done

This post was edited by Hawkeye on Apr 27, 2006.

I agree with Hawkeye, please no flame war about the topic. And there's no need at all to attack the person! On the contrary, as weird and confused her opinions seem to be - SEEM to be, who can claim to have the ultimate truth about the matter - lightyears has my full respect for coming forth and speaking out against a wall of opposition here. I think, we should not let this drift away into something personal. Its one thing to have different opinions, but another to disrespect each other for it. This topic and uttered standpoints are too important to get reduced into something personal.

I DO find those opinions strange, sometimes even dangerous, that's why I felt the need to reply and show my point of view. Its hard to take someone serious, who so openly disrespects the formal rules, but so be it. That doesn't mean I have to go down to that level and draw it to a personal hassle (btw... Hawk/Andro... I feel strangely reminded of a certain situation in the past). I don't think its easy for lightyears to explain her views to a waiting pack of opposers, but lets not forget that she's got all the right to express her thoughts, just as anybody else here. In a way this is democracy at work. I can easily imagine societies, where neither her nor my opinion could be worded in public without getting in some sort of trouble. So, we should be grateful to have this opportunity, and in a way its even a valuable experience, because you can learn about the mechanics of hate and retaliation from first hand. You can learn how religion becoming politics creates an explosive mixture of violence.

I must say, reading and learning that I do not wonder anymore, why the killing goes on and on for decades now. And assuming this fanatism is exemplary for both sides extremists we can expect this conflict to go on until one side is complete eliminated. That's really a scary picture lightyears has given here.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

"It's funny how over the years, we as a culture attempt to tone down violence with disrespect and then wonder why we can never truly debate or peacefully co-exist without someone or some group "bullying" to get their point across. We are all insane because over the centries we find ourselves doing the same things expecting different results".---TonydelRegato

As history shows us, it has always been Aces over Kings

This post was edited by havananights on Jun 16, 2006.