Reading Philosophy

I watched "What the #?%& do we know"

I ripped off a one page explanation of the relation between reality and magic from a quantum standpoint. I think a number of people thinking synchronized thoughts could act as a quantum detector which could crystalize major magic from the infinite probability waves that surround us.

Quantum/Magic
by Doctor_Tomas

The basic problem with a quantum theory based philosophy is the blurring of the line between magic and reality. Magic is by definition not possible. Many things thought to have been magic have come to be accepted as ordinary reality. What then is the difference?

In reality to get from point A to point B some sort of force must be applied and the intervening space must be traversed in such a way that obstacles are removed or bypassed. In magic the magician moves from point A to Point B with no application of force, no need to get around or through obstacles, and no passage of time.

In physics laboratories such magical actions have been shown to be commonplace. Perhaps the simplest example would be the electron which is known to routinely jump from one orbital to another with no passage of time and without transversing the intervening space. (My apologies to physicists for whom this example is a great oversimplification. But even physicists would agree that electrons moving from one shell to another fulfill the simple definition of magic I have stated).

To perform actions on a visible scale that would be acceptable to the population at large which today would be considered magical, one would have to demonstrate an acceptable chain of cause and effect. Perhaps a demonstrable phenomenon which can by extrapolation would explain an otherwise magical event.

Perhaps the pathway to such a phenomena has already been provided by ESP experiments which have demonstrated that a large group of people can have a small but measurable and repeatable effect on the roll of dice. Skeptical scientists have long been dismissive of such things. To find what you are looking for it is best to have a theory concerning the nature of the underlying principle. The importance of theory to discovery is seen in physics all the time.

If we know A by acceptable proof and we can then prove that A implies B and B implies C. If C is true a phenomenon P will be observed under certain specific experimental set ups in a particle accelerator.

What we need is a syllogism A therefore B therefore C which would result in a gross physical result that can be demonstrated each time a proper situation is created. Quantum physics was developed by a series of such syllogisms, most of which rely on not much more than the simple arithmetic. What was considered magical thus became the basis for something like 75% of our technology.

Once detected a probability wave crystallizes into what would be considered ordinary reality. Some believe that the human mind is the ultimate detector. This would explain why theories so often precede discoveries. This would explain the remarkable incidence of simultaneous discovery and would explain the everyday experience of bumping into facts which are of particular interest to the seeker.

anyway if you relate to these ideas at all let me know. If you think I write too dryly or just plain suck let me know.
Dr.T

You're clearly far too caught up on a mechanistic universe to consider that that's just a model, not the actual thing. The maths that describes what happens in quantum physics is sound as to the evidence.

Perhaps the simplest example would be the electron which is known to routinely jump from one orbital to another with no passage of time and without transversing the intervening space.

Well if you are proposing we live in a continuous universe maybe I could propose (as per Zeno's Paradox) that any movement is magical.

And if you're thinking of an electron as a tiny little ball orbiting around another set of tiny little balls you may want to re-examine the way you think of the atom.

You can't let the analogy for the thing be the thing rather than just a convenient shorthand and then complain that the thing can't do something it does because then the analogy wouldn't make sense.

But even physicists would agree that electrons moving from one shell to another fulfill the simple definition of magic I have stated)

No, because you've stated that magic is by definition not possible whilst it is by observation only possible for electrons to have certain energy levels. You are very much hung up on the concept that they must 'move' as one might move across a room. You are not very much like an electron. The micro world is very much different to the macro world.

Perhaps the pathway to such a phenomena has already been provided by ESP experiments which have demonstrated that a large group of people can have a small but measurable and repeatable effect on the roll of dice.

It has? New one on me. I was pretty much certain that every controlled experiment on everyone who claimed they has these abilities conclusively showed they were delusional.

Skeptical scientists have long been dismissive of such things.

That's becuase they're good ones. I don't know what experiments you've seen that demonstrate anything like ESP but I'm guessing they weren't anywhere near the quality required to produce statistically significant data.

Oh and scientists who aren't skeptical aren't very good scientists. By definition a skeptic requires evidence: just what do you think a scientist should be doing if not collecting evidence?

What we need is a syllogism A therefore B therefore C which would result in a gross physical result that can be demonstrated each time a proper situation is created. Quantum physics was developed by a series of such syllogisms, most of which rely on not much more than the simple arithmetic. What was considered magical thus became the basis for something like 75% of our technology.

What are you on about? You seem to be saying some people sat around, one day decided to foist quantum physics on us because that would be fun (and if you think it's not much more than simple arithmetic then you're one hell of a mathematician or you just haven't even tried looking at the advanced stuff). You seem to have a rather bad opinion of the people who have built 75% (?) of our technology on magical principles (that just happen to work for some reason...).

Some believe that the human mind is the ultimate detector.

Not I. Mainly because it's not a detector of any sort.

This would explain why theories so often precede discoveries.

Hypothesis -> evidence -> theory. It is a common misconception that somehow scientific theories come fully formed after a good deal of discussion between scientists on how much they like the theory before everyone goes off and actually gets the evidence to show the theory has any weight. No, what happens is that a scientist will form a hypothesis - a guess - and see if he was right or not. If may take a hell of a lot of hypotheses before one of them can get promoted to the lofty height of theory.

If one is to discuss science then semantic precision is required.

This would explain the remarkable incidence of simultaneous discovery

Cite please. What simultaneous discoveries are you referring to and why are they remarkable?

would explain the everyday experience of bumping into facts which are of particular interest to the seeker.

To a true seeker all facts are interesting. If you are only interested in a subset you will probably still see some in your day. I do not see what is extraordinary about that.

Just to add a small thing to the topic, the movie showing that quantum physics is really something amazing.

http://video.google.pl/videoplay?docid=-4237751840526284618

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

http://video.google.pl/videoplay?docid=-4237751840526284618

Did I mention that it is great to be interested in quantum theory?

What comes around goes around.

Http://Bethe.Cornell.Edu/

some more goodies here.

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

This is awesome!

When did you have knowledge of this site?

This is the sort of stuff I like, nice lectures by people who have dedicated their lives to such endeavors as quantum physics.

What comes around goes around.

I like how you are interested in quantum theory.

You might be interested in visiting this website.

A short and really neat paper on quantum theory that may be of interest to you may be found here.

To find the paper:

1.) First click on the "faculty" button in the left column.
2.) Then, click on the director's link.
3.) Next, scroll down until you find the fourth title, of 2004 and click on it.

note:
Please do not mention the authors name or titles of the paper when replying to this post. I would like this post to not be picked up by any search engine on the topic.

Thank you.

What comes around goes around.

There is a game called quantum golf. Where the ball behaves according to quantum theory - each throw ends up as a field of possibilites (my quick description, see the screenshot).

Http://Quantumminigolf.Sourceforge.Net/

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

This is an excellent game, as is your post on quantum theory.

I'm just now reading about quatum theory, myself.

The figure next to the directions on how to play the game reminds me of when I was in physics class. We were studying waves and discussing light.

Where are you in regards to your study of quantum theory?

I am studying this on my own vice in an academic setting.

What comes around goes around.

Where are you in regards to your study of quantum theory?

Just like the ball after passing through the barrier. A bit here, and a bit there ;-)

i haven't tried to actually get decent knowledge about quantum theory yet. Maybe i will soon.

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."