Reading Philosophy

Seeing as Philosophy is the art of questioning...

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

And another question: Is knowing the truth always beneficial? Is it best to have as much knowledge as possible?

You're here, aren't you? You're talking to me, aren't you?

Seeing as nobody else hangs around in here, I'm going to add my .02 :-)

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

We can probably find solutions, but I don't believe we'll be able to realize them within due time. From what I've seen, people more often than not prefer the "if I stick my head in the sand, maybe the problem will go away" approach, or they just plainly refuse to acknowledge a problem. You can find this kind of behaviour almost everywhere and in every aspect of life.

Take diets, f'r instance. Time and again this easy formula has been proven right: consume less energy than your body burns, and you'll lose weight. In other words, go easy on the cheese cake and exercise.
Most people who want to lose weight are not happy with that approach: it's a slow process and probably demands abstention from eating your favourite foods, not to mention the strenuous physical activity. Hence they go crazy over something like Atkins or the dozens of miracle diets in women's magazines that promise weight loss with nearly no sacrifice whatsoever. I believe that the potential for denial and wishful thinking is in all of us.

Then there's the fact that knowing and accepting what is 'right' doesn't mean you'll automatically do it. Maybe you don't because of laziness - think of flossing: everybody agrees that it's a good idea, if your dentist is like mine he'll preach the necessity of flossing after every meal to you on every visit, and you assure him that you do it religiously - yet both you and him know that you do it maybe once a day... on a good week.

Or look at our current (and past) environmental problems, a long-running issue if there ever was one. It's a pretty safe bet* to say that we'll eventually run out of oil, global warming will kill (or at least seriously mess with) most of our food supplies, regular water shortages in the first world may well be a reality soon, and who knows what's waiting for us in terms of natural disasters.
We all know what it takes to solve (or at least delay) these problems: sell your car and use solar-powered public transportation, save electricity wherever/whenever possible, use less plastic, buy all your food from a nearby farm and make a bunch of other really huge sacrifices.
The facts are more or less undisputed*, yet show me one geographic area or society that would embrace or even accept these changes that ask you to sacrifice so big a part of your comfy life.
(* Unless your last name is Bush or Cheney, in which case unlimited access to cheap oil is your God-given right as a citizen of a free country and all will be well once your glorious troops have wiped out 'em freedom-hating terrorist sand niggers.)

Then there's greed. I've heard it said that there is not one single Fortune 500 company that hasn't been charged with a crime at least once. In the 90's the Pentagon set up an office especially to deal with fraud cases by General Electric. Companies like IBM, Krupp and Siemens supported Hitler in exchange for exclusive multi-billion contracts with the Reich.

And last but not least, even among the purest and most well-intended of idealists, not everybody has the same idea of what is the 'right' thing to do.

Consider yourself hugged.

f'r

This is an example of rhoticity. In this case, though, it is not being placed on a mid-centric vowel. Here it is acting as the end of a word. It takes place when the r sound is attributed to a schwa, which is represented as ə.

Therefore -- the point being -- in using the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA), the word would be spelled as such:fə~. The tilda in this post represents a sort little,squiggly mark made on the schwa when denoting rhoticity..

The etimology of "schwa" by the way, is of Hebrew origin. It may even be of Syriac origin previous of the latter.

What comes around goes around.

On a personal note, i tend to be iclined to run with the thinking that reason is the cause of self destruction. For me, it is knowledge, reason and understanding that lead to self hatred and destruction. I can only disgust what i understand

however on a global level, i guess the opposite is true... It seems most people are ready to freely hate that which they dont understand. This makes mel sad.

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

That depends, what kind of reason are you talking about. Each individual person has their own sense of direction and reasoning, to why such they did so and so.
I've seen that people can make up elaborate rationalisations to reason out what and why they did something. This especially happens when the person in question has done something society/parents/ones you love regards as wrong.

Take a relationship for example, we've got a couple who has just had a massive arguement and so in consequence, they break up. The girl gets all her girlfriends and have a big night out on which occasion she gets very drunk and sleeps with a stranger.
The next evening her (ex) boyfriend calls up and says he was very sorry for the argument and asks for forgiveness. The girl feels incredibly guilty for what she did and tells the boy about what had happened the night before. The boy now obvisiouly hurt and feeling incredibly betrayed questions how such could ever happen? They had loved each other for a while now, and just because of an argument, its not a reason to sleep with anyone else.
- Girl argues - She was angry and upset, wanted to have a bit of fun and also she had broken up with him.
- Boy argues - It's only been a DAY!

In the boys mind, there couldnt be no sensible reasoning why should would sleep with anyone else, arguments aside he still loved her and was sure (or thought he was) that she loved him too. However, in the girls mind, they had broken up. The words "broken up" gives enough "reason" to do what she did eventhough she does still love him and wants to get with him.

So put yourself in both their shoes in turn and what reasoning would you pick?

I guess reasoning to me has come to be relative to each person. So as far as your question goes, can reasoning solve all the problesm of the world....?

Well, I really wouldnt think so, Money could be the reason for so many (and is) and well, the world is still going to hell.
As for the logicpart of it, well like Null said, I think there is a sort of a mathematical logic in how the world is seriously getting screwed but we just are too lazy to do anything else about it.

The whole "lets make like and ostrich" really applies.
I live down under at the moment and we have a serious water issue, and just a few days ago the new government budget plan did not include anything about new water restriction plans or programs.
I honestly have no idea why? they constantly advertise to use less water BUT didnt but any money towards the programs that help save it.
Its seems completely unreasonable and totally illogical BUT i'm sure money has something to do with it, and I'm not sure whose pockets they are going to line this time.

For self destruction, I really think the same would apply. Instead of a government body put a person behind it, I'm sure there are a lot of people living in denial out there and reasoning with themselves that what they did was because of the situations on hand, but not really because it was the easy way out. (just an example, there are a thousand other reasoning dilemmas out there)

As for your second question

Is knowing the truth always beneficial? Is it best to have as much knowledge as possible?

Well, what is the truth? how do we know anything is true and what kind of truth are you exactly looking for?
Our existance? Our perceptions? the ol' who am I? and what and I doing here?
we have no real proof philosophically, who we are, what we are and in most situations will land up in an aporia of sorts.

I guess just I would best just try to gather as much knowledge as I know, not necessarily do I have to make perfect sense out of everything I know, as I've come to realise its sort of a never ending pit of questions when you are looking for something that has to chain up and link together.

Anyways, hope you make sense of what I've written, its just my two sense of things..

what do you personally think?

Foosh... Aaughh!!... Foosh... Aauuggghh!! - Cold spray deodorant

In order to move through the discussion, some basic presuppositions are in order. Perhaps we should define our terms for easy understanding.

By reasoning, I take it to mean a deliberative process, such as the scientific method, or some such debate.
Assumedly, this definition would have to include "peer review"--which begs the question who are the peers? This of course, presupposes a "group" of experts--those who are specialists.
It seems to me that we already have that.

The difference is that you're talking about the deliberators becoming policy makers, and not the rhetoricians.

I see the biggest obstacle to that is social conditioning, or perhaps its human nature; but it's the schoolhouse mentality. Growing up, I recall the smartest and brightest being hated, picked on and resented. We're taught early-on to go with the flow, and not make waves. Behave, is the school's mantra. Order brings intelligence, by this standard.
Latent in our sub-consciousness is this memory. We recall in our training for "adulthood" that we get "ahead" by following along. Don't question things, or people in charge. Be compliant is our conditioning. The desire to fight, struggle, question, be brilliant is beaten out of us by the time we become adults and start working.

I look at an all-reasoning environment as that, as the beat-down on the recreation yard for being too smart.
Is this counter-intuitive; that in an all-thinking society that we would resent those even smarter? No, its not. The sad reality is that all logic, all reasoning, all thinking, et al, exists only on the blackboard, or in the books.
We've tried this experiment, it's called Communism. Communism did away with churches and "thoughtless" pursuits, such as art. The Dark Ages, and Crusades can be seen as a time when reason ruled Civilization.

The pinnacle of a reasoning society could be The Borg, from Star Trek. That's the purest form that I can use as an example. Machine-like logic is as good of a way to rule the universe as any, right?

I think the problem with any approach that presupposes one single solution will cover all problems, is that it's bound to fail. One problem is that it doesn't take human nature into consideration. It also doesn't take into account all the varying elements that we need to make us whole, complete people.

The question to me really should be this: will logic, reasoning, and the deliberative process, tempered by empathy and compassion, be enough to steer us from our current direction?

The Cranesbill--a surprising pick by Emmet.

Reson can do nothing. really, absolutely nothing. it won't change the world or anything.

now, why is that so? because reason is a tool, and as such, per definition, a tool can do nothing on it's own.

You could use it for good or worse. And then again, it also depends on how good a tool you got.
For Example, in summer there are more icecream sales, and in summe there is more crime. Which leads to the conclusion that icecream is responsible for crime. Which is a classic logic fallacy. It's even so classic, it's got it's own name, cum hoc ergo protpter hoc ("with this, therefore because of this") ;) But to some people it seems reasonable (ok, with other examples).

Like a screwdriver, you can use it to build a machine that solves all our environmental problems, or you could stick it into your coworkers head because you envy his girlfriend.

And well, even if you want to argue on sciences with reason. well, some hundret years ago when railways where invented, there where some people, also scientists, who argued that humans shouldn't travel at 40 mph, because it's was dangerous and unhealthy for the human body, because we weren't made for such high speeds. Which is completely ridiculous to us today, but was considered very reasonable back then.

And then again, there are the cases where our "knowledge" even interfears with reason. given the choice for 2 places to spend the rest of my live at (only concerning the safety aspect), an nuclear power plant or an airplane, i'd chose the power plant. i guess most people wouldnt. If you take reason and test both, you'll find that a nuclear power plant (nowadays with like 5 self-sufficient failsafe-systems, some of them not even thechnical, but working due to physical laws) is way safer than an airplane, but still, quite some people would chose the airplane, because of tschernobyll and so on. Because our knowledge tells us that something is bad, and went pretty wrong, even though our reason tells us that all those flaws have been taken care of. Ok, not the best example, but i couldn't think of another one at the moment.

And then again, for reason in non-emotional/non-personal issues (the girlfriend/boyfriend thing from before clearly only depends on eachs point of view) you need complete knowledge to truely apply reason. Like solar power is so good, it uses the suns energy with almost no waste, so not using up precious natural ressources. It's reasonable. But well, most solar power cells today use poisonous substances in their creation, like arsenic acid, and production of solar cells (at least the standard type) produces a lot of CO2. ok there's a lot of research going on and i hope they fix this stuff in the future, but my point is that with incomplete knowledge, reason is flawed.
And well, "The wish is father to the tought" applies quite often as well ;)

And well, we as humans as such can never know everything, our brains are just too small, and scientifically spoken, the uncertainity principle forbids complete knowledge.

which leads to the conclusion, while reason as such might be one of the most powerfull tools of the human race, it can never be applied to it's full potential, it's will always remain flawed, imperfect and as such it can never solely solve all our problems.

And about the self-destruction thing: reason and logic alone cannot save us from selfdestruction, due to the points above. Imperfect logic and reason still leaves room for failure. but it may put the chances in our favour ;)

You only know if knowing the truth is beneficial, when you know it, at which point it's already too late, so i guess, nothing you could do about it except from denieng the truth. but as this is a personal choice/opinion, you cannot find a universal answer to that question, imho. But when it comes to use of reason, knowing as much as possible if beneficial.

"The wise have always said the same things, and fools have always done the opposite"-Schopenhauer

I like your base but it’s got to have more depth if you want to solve problems.

About this Boy friend girl friend thing. The first priority is for determining fault and reason is to determine base/ ground work. Relationships don’t work themselves into perfection. People don’t make decisions to fix everything 24-7. The girl was upset, so she said "I want to have fun..." So when she purposed to do such she took her boyfriends idea of (break up) as an excuse to serve self along with self pity. Then when the boyfriend said he was sorry she thought (oh crap) I didn’t think about fixing this, I thought about myself only. Did she really want to fix this with reason? I think she was only thinking of her own situation and keeping herself afloat with interaction of motive to be still in action instead of her with her boyfriend she replaced him with a one nighter. Do you see there was no reason or purpose other than self?

Reason doesn’t work with self. Long term anything takes serventhood. So listen to this example.

A girl who was 8 years old gets brutally victimized and grows up thinking all men suck. But when she is 20 years old she says to herself, "life has got to be more than this". So she buckles down and says "if I can I will". So she see a guy who seems to be descent and she gives him a little slack. After a while she realizes he is a jerk because he wants to service himself only. So she perplexed, "why try anything with men. So she thinks about possibilities with women. So she finds a nice girl to comfort her and after a while realizes this seems to be more of a balanced but it seems to be based on timely circumstances vs untimely. She wants kids and wants to be a good wife but this situation only provides a feeling of pleasure and peace. What she decides she wants is a relationship that can sustain time, trials, heartache, chemistry, pleasure, and morality that gives extra peace of mind, and to be a satisfied so she feels perfected. So she goes to church and learns a different way of thinking. The church teaches her that God has put her on earth for one reason. That reason was to choose a certain pattern of life that brought her closer to God. Then she learned that God performed a miracle to make purpose for living here and for living eternally with Him. She dint quite understand it all but there was enough there for her to make sense of what Gods purposes were but not hers. She still felt like all these bad things were happening to her and she deserved better. So she reasoned to put her life into a different scenario. She thought what if it had all turned out perfect. Then she realized something. She still would have to make some choices about this God thing. So weather here life was good or bad there were still choices. Had she made the choice to suffer for eternity, or the choice to look forward to an eternity? For the Bible teaches that one sin committed towards God means that you will have to pay for that sin with innocent blood. You can’t use your blood because it is not innocent. So how does this complex meaning of reason come in to play? God shed His own (innocent) blood and said if you believe in me I will cover your sins and you can spend eternity with Me. So this Girl starts to see a bigger picture. Even though some idiot had taken advantage of her, God still had an eternal plan for her. So she reasoned to say Because that man was an idiot, not God, I will reason to follow God and spend eternity with Him. God didn’t allow her to get hurt in a sense that she would be eternally damaged. Only in a way to show her she was in a sin filled world that will use any REASON to get what they want. (SELF). So if you want to be Satisfied, I feel that the girl would be best of if she accepted that she was a victim of selfish people rather than of God’s torture. This was caused by mans free will. But she was put into a place to consider reason which can hopefully lead to clear thinking, which can hopefully lead to a real purpose. Her purpose was to find out what she meant to God. God said He loved her and would seal her eternity of safety if she would try to serve Him as well as others. By serving we give ourselves something to look back on and be purposeful. Then if we do what makes us purposeful then we can build from a base to more and more purpose that leads us to less stupid mistakes. (So if the chick up above had said well maybe this isn’t the man for me, maybe she could of said let me regroup and see if it was something I did that made this go down hill instead of getting so revengeful and selfish.) Note: You can be the nicest person in the world but if your doing it to look back at yourself and say “I am the bomb and everybody should worship me and give to me and suffer for me”, then your no different than Satan himself.
He was so selfish that he felt being so good should lead him to being worshiped. Think about it. If you serve God and serve others, you become humble and less prone to making worldly bad decisions. To follow the bible doesn’t mean you have to stop having fun, it just puts your real goal as eternity with GOD. Most Christians try to live both lives and it becomes a mess because they want to play and be selfish and at the same time they want to be proud of there “great walk with God” and that pride has to be covered up with “well I only do this because my life was so bad before excuse”. That crap doesn’t work. One cannot have 2 masters. It’s either God or Self. If you serve yourself God says you can spend all eternity by yourself and that means without him. A place without God is Hell.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

The church teaches her that God has put her on earth for one reason. That reason was to choose a certain pattern of life that brought her closer to God.

And then the post seems to go on assuming there is such an entity as "God", which, in my humble opinion, cannot be explained with reason.
I believe that turning to God to find satisfaction and to cover your sins is in fact selfish, while serving others is not.

When your every move is monitored, you won't see me.

So if turning to God is selfish then so would this be.

Your a young kid and your dad tells you to clean your room and do your chors. Oh and he tells you to respect other and so on. Then he tells you if you dont comply you will get punished. So you go on and do your chors, but you forget to take out the trash. So your dad says you can say your sorry or get a whoopen/grounded whatever. Being selfish from your opinion would be to ask for forgivness. I dont get it. Especially if you are truely sorry.

Just because you dont see God as an entity, doesnt change what He is. He says He sees us as His children whom He loves dearly. So much so he took the whoopen for us. Then He said He wishes none to perish but all to have everlasting life. Then he gives us the Chor list. When we screw up he gives us the consiquence but not punishment if we try our best to please Him. He says if we choose not to believe in Him we will spend eternity away from him in hell. That doesnt mean He doesnt love us, it means He wont choose for us. You have chosen your road, you can change your mind. But as I see it whatever we do wont change who he is. So if I say I dont believe in gravity and jump out of a plane, Crap happens. Because you cant see God with your eyes "cant see gravity" doesnt mean He doesnt exist. You only know when you jump out of the plane so to speak what is real. When you die your eyes will be 100% open. 20/20 hindsite vision wont do a bit of good. There are millions of ways to see he exist, Scientist see it every day, and so do I. If you close your eyes like a little kid doesnt mean you get out of reality.
Every one can still see you.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

So your dad says you can say your sorry or get a whoopen/grounded whatever. Being selfish from your opinion would be to ask for forgivness. I dont get it. Especially if you are truely sorry.

I think threatening your child with "a whoopen" will not make them be truly sorry for not putting out the trash, having him/her understand why it needs to be taken out and why it is his/her task might.
As a non-believer I have nothing to fear.

Because you cant see God with your eyes "cant see gravity" doesnt mean He doesnt exist.

But I can see and feel gravity. Objects fall downwards.

There are millions of ways to see he exist, Scientist see it every day, and so do I.

Yet none can prove that he does.

When one is convinced of something, one is more likely to notice things that support ones conviction and it is easier to ignore evidence against it.

When your every move is monitored, you won't see me.

This post was edited by oKtosiTe on Sep 29, 2007.

Okay about the girlfriend/boyfriend thing. It was simply an example to portray the difference in thought process between two people and many persons. Not necessarily what the girl did was right, for in her mind they were broken up. They wouldnt get back together, she wanted to forget about it, she wanted to forget herself so she slept with another guy. It didn't even mean anything. But depending on the kind of people you would meet some would understand, and some wouldnt, again because of the thought process of each individual.

REmember reason is only an explanation or a justification for what you have done.

Everyones thought process is different.

And when the did this conversation become about the Almighty?

I fail to see how your answering the question really.

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

If you believe that God has all the solution, and you're doing what good you can do in this life to ultimatly be with him. That would plain and simply be your choice. But it doesn't have to be anyone else.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are putting God up as the ultimate reason. God is not the ultimate reason. He could be the reason for all the choices you make, but he isn't the yard stick by what everything is measured. Your answer seems more like a sermon than rather what is being asked.

I've read your post and still am reading your post to get the answer of where really is.

Everyone has their own choices to make in life, its the justification behind the choices that we call reason. The girl you talk about might turn to god because of the experiances she has had in life, thats where reason comes in as this in "this is the path I choose to take because I see a future there" she could very well turn to other things, for example continue to try new men/women out and see what makes her feel at peace.

God doesn't give you all the solutions in the world, you give yourself the solutions conciously or subconsciously. Whether you believe that it was God coming to you in your dreams or what ever is a comepletely different subject.

God didn’t allow her to get hurt in a sense that she would be eternally damaged. Only in a way to show her she was in a sin filled world that will use any REASON to get what they want. (SELF).

So if you want to be Satisfied, I feel that the girl would be best of if she accepted that she was a victim of selfish people rather than of God’s torture.

What are you saying here? Everyone does things for their own reasons, good, bad and ugly!
A victim of selfish people? YOU are the VICTIM of your OWN CHOICES. Everything that happens to you in directly or inderectly related to the things you do. ofcourse you deserve better everyone deserves better, but the things that happen to you are there to make you strong and provide you with a better knowledge of mankind, selfish people in your words, so the next time you don't pick someone that is a jerk.

Going to God and living life for him seems like an escapist form of view. you have one life on EARTH! Live it, expierance it. Dont complain about what good or bad is done, feel hurt and pain joy and everything, you seem to forget that without rain you would never know what sunshine is, And truly, love and hate and joy and pain are from the same origin. And why live preparing for eternity when you CANNOT PROVE it exists or not. And a book that tells me it exists is not exaclty the best proof. If I beleived every book I read that was deemed worth of my utmost faith, I'd believe in a cow flying over the moon.

Oh... and don't get me wrong, I'm not athiest. I believe in God, very much so. But I also believe it reality and in being practical.

So before giving a sermon about what God did for me and all that, read the question. God wont save me from my own mind. If my mind believes in the way it does and has its own reasoning I could kill myself and self destruct. It doenst matter how many religious places I go to. There is no saving to be done there, a mind is a mind is a mind is a mind. And it will have its own reason and logic.

P.S Please space out your post in paragraphs, it's easier to read.
Thanks.

Foosh... Aaughh!!... Foosh... Aauuggghh!! - Cold spray deodorant

This post was edited by jael on Sep 30, 2007.

think threatening your child with "a whoopen" will not make them be truly sorry for not putting out the trash, having him/her understand why it needs to be taken out and why it is his/her task might.

Ok I was a little vague for the disiplinary action. My full thoughts are that a child only gets disiplined in the order of his/her amount of purposeful wrong doing. So if they purposely ignore your cause then they get a whoopen.(porportionatly) Other wise only actions of talking thru should be taken. So if you say don’t go into the street “coarse action”. Don’t touch that its hot “coarse action”. Do your chores “ minimal actions” Got caught lieing “coarse action”.

All this to say it is for REASON that we do these things. I have seen kids who get time out and it does not work. I have also seen kids that get whoopens and it doesn’t work. I believe it is the realationship that causes learning. A small fanny whoopen with a small rod has never killed anyone nor hurt them long term if use the right way. But non disiplinary action killed kids all the time.

In saying that. Reason this “ A rational ground or motive” If I want to teach my kid to kill. What good would it do for your kid. The Reasoning that I don’t teach him/her to kill is because he/she needs disipline into rational thinking and not creating unthought ful kids. Kids are born 100% selfish. All they care about is themselves. If they are not taught respect they don’t just get it. The also see love being taught when we whoop them for running into the street in a blitz. They MUST respect the nature of a car. If we did not teach them that they wouldn’t learn very well. If we just pull them away we are only teaching them not to do it when we are around. Severe punishment teaches them serious consiquenses before they get killed.

As a non-believer I have nothing to fear

As a non believer in paying taxes, I have nothing to fear. Until they catch me. Then I can use any excuse I want but I will have to pay. Believe what you want, But don’t use any excuse when you get caught. Just say “I didn’t think you were real so be nice” HA what kind of a response do you think youll get? You will pay, Unfortunatly, and it will take all eternity, and you never pay for it all. This makes me sad because you just don’t care. And if you did care you think GOD should have done it different. God said “by faith will we please Him”. You have no Faith.

But I can see and feel gravity. Objects fall downwards

And if you looked you could see God as well. But you REASON “sufficient ground of explanation” only to the extent of what sounds good to your believe. So if I gave you a Reason to believe God, you would only believe what you want. And for the purpose of being able to prove there is a God, The bible teaches that it is only those who truly seek him that he will open there eyes. At least until the Judgement.

Yet none can prove that he does.

1. All Human DNA links to one mother 5000-7000 years ago. ALL HUMANS 100% provable.
2. Einstiens Theory of relativeity has been true enough to show the expanse of the universe in biblical terms. But the speed of light is slowing down which shows that things will not alwways be the same.
3. If the world were a million years old the Sun would be to hot for life to exsist. 100% provable. As Well as it is shrinking,
4. No bone could last very long on the surface of the earth. The only way bones can be preserved for thousands of years is if they were covered very fast and covered with billions of tons of water turning them into rock. So that is what the flood did 4500 years ago. Imagine you’re an animal and its starts raining for a month straight. So you run for high ground, you meet up with a mountain sliding down, then you get covered in mud, then you get turned into a rock. Then 4500 years later, when you get dug up, some suggest that you where there for millions of years. So let them. It would have been too HOT for you to live. HELLO.
5. The oceans are getting saltier. So 4500 years ago they would have been all unsalty. But things progess and 2000 years from now they will be too salty.
6. All animals create the same spicies. There is NOT ONE piece of proof that we evolved, Even with them looking every day for 150 years. In fact we are “DNA wise” getting weaker and loosing information. That is 100% the opposite of evolution. In fact all of the proof they used to have about thing getting better like the eye, we find even the simplist eyes have all the ingedients to make a full eye with color-depth and focus. Meaning in didn’t evolve it was just complete.
7. The very fact that you are breathing air is unique and can only be explained by a window of 1% of perfection for life to exsist.
I could go on but even with these proofs that the timeline and structures meet up with the bible is more than proof. There is more proof that the bible is infalible than that you even exsist. For 2000 plus years they have been trying to find a flaw and they just freaking CANT. WOW doesn’t hat mean anything. For 150 years they have been trying to proove evolution and freaking CANT, WOW!! Every last proof has been a lie or has been miniputed until we found deeper proof. Like DNA OH the simple cell. Well if it was simple then it could evolve, but if a cell was 1 + trillion little computer culculation changing every millisecond then that would be harder to explain. Which it is. No matter how you look at it REASON will only prevail if the information doesn’t carry the avoiding truth base that evolution would have you believe.
REASON is the INTELLEGENCE behind all of this. Unintelligent people don’t want to Reason. And Believe me if they can find any shred of evidence to stay unresponsible for leading the world away from God they will clutter to it like superglue.

Can our reason and logic eventually find solutions for all the problems in the world... or better yet, can they at least save us from self-destruction?

What is SELF- destruction? I think it is self explanitory. You serve yourself and it destructs itself by wanting more and more and more.

Going to God and living life for him seems like an escapist form of view

And what are we escaping from? I truly think we see that there is no other way to live forever without going to HIM. If you want to make your own way there, maybe you should start by being almighty and perfect, Which I am not. So I figure thru REASON that maybe believing in something that can only be proven to be true and has only doughtful people to question it as fact, I am thinking maybe they are doughtful because they really arent looking.

And why live preparing for eternity when you CANNOT PROVE it exists or not. And a book that tells me it exists is not exaclty the best proof. If I beleived every book I read that was deemed worth of my utmost faith, I'd believe in a cow flying over the moon.

Unless that Book has more than 1 million reasons to believe it is from God and not Man Made. There are so many codes and supenatural and significant consistansies in the bible, There is only one way to believe it is not of God. That would be by believing that some idiot told you it was not. The Proof is in the Pudding. That’s a GOOD REASON?

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

There is more proof that the bible is infalible than that you even exsist. For 2000 plus years they have been trying to find a flaw and they just freaking CANT.

For 150 years they have been trying to proove evolution and freaking CANT, WOW!

Wow, where have you been hiding for the last few centuries?


(PS, everyone knows that there's just one true religion!)

Consider yourself hugged.

This post was edited by null on Oct 02, 2007.

(PS, everyone knows that there's just one true religion!)

Have you remembered to keep your sacrificial pipe clean and well used, Null? ;)

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Have you remembered to keep your sacrificial pipe clean and well used, Null?

Of course! And it's always prepared for extended periods of GFD praising the next time you're flying to Europe. :-)

Consider yourself hugged.

It'd be sacrilegious not to come and partake. =)

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Wow...mised that one first time around....
LOL!! that's a great post.

The Cranesbill--a surprising pick by Emmet.

I am not going to waste my time debating with someone who refuses to even look or consider another way. There is no point, this is a dicussion between people, not an imposition of thought.

If you want to walk through life wearing blinders and thinking the way you do, it is completely your choice and I have no problem with it.

There is an difference to voicing your opinion and imposing on someone and what you are doing is the latter.

I dont know how you can call a pure and innocent child/baby 100% selfish. They are the closest thing to "God" you can get. So innocent and naive.

All I can say is believe in what you want to, but don't ask me to even begin to think your way. I will choose to do and believe and fear in what I want to.
I got one life, I'm not going to waste it living in fear and not experiancing life the way I want to.

This is where I end it. Your preaching to the wrong crowd. We have a lot of Christians on this board if I'm not mistaken here, but no one imposes thought on another.

Oh and by the way, I was beaten up as a kid. It didn't turn out well for my perants or me. AND as a kid who was beaten up. NOT ONCE do you think that what you did was wrong. You develope FEAR and HATRED for people you shouldn't and its a down right fucking shitty way to live. Two things happen then, you either live your whole life as a person who lives in fear and insecurity or you rebel against everything and anything that tries to conform you until and unless you understand why it is happening, and why your parents are that way.. AND EVEN THEN it takes a long time to get over it and finally be at peace with yourself and your parents.

Foosh... Aaughh!!... Foosh... Aauuggghh!! - Cold spray deodorant

This post was edited by jael on Oct 02, 2007.

But...

you see...

do you..

how can...

I don't know where to start with your post. Firstly, you need to learn basic spelling and grammar. "doughtful" had me in hysterics on the floor. And now i'm hungry for bread.

It seems to me that your key argument throughout your post keeps coming back to this idea of reason.

one thing in particular struck me (pardon the pun) in your interesting opinions on disciplinary (note the 'c') punishment. Don't you think the best way for children to learn is through reason itself? physical punishment causes a child to learn through fear. and yes, perhaps some of the time they may make a reasoned connection between the pain/fear and the point you are trying to make, ultimately the lesson they are learning is "walking onto to road is bad and results in pain for me" instead of "walking onto the road is a bad idea because it's dangerous and i might die". now there may not seem to be much difference in those statements... until the child reaches a stage where they overcome their fear of the parent/guardian. they need to be able to learn reason and respect through logic and experience. say a child skips school and gets suspended and you beat them. they will be afraid to do it again, but will they understand the myriad of reasons why it was stupid? will they understand the waste of money, time, resources? will they realise the consequences if there was a fire at the school and their name was on the roll but they weren't on schoolgrounds? would they understand that they are creating more schoolwork for themselves? do you plan and spanking a 6 year old to teach them? a 10 year old? 14? 16? 17 and 11 months. they must be able to rationalise and learn as an individual. it is up to parents to give their child this skill. a good parent does not need physical punishment.

a parents ultimate job is to raise their children to be able able to cope and thrive in the adult world in all aspects of life. if you cannot beat an adult, you cannot beat a child. i'm at a restaurant and a man wont leave my friend alone, this is bad and dangerous. do i hit him to let him know? no. it's assault. hitting a child is assault. giving birth does not give you the right to abuse someone. if you lack the ability to raise your child through this "REASON" you seem to feel so strongly about then you do not deserve to keep it.

i'm sorry, but i'm going to have to stop myself now before examining your other insightful comments.

I wish i had 'faith'. i want a REASON to sound like a jackass.

-melmel

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

"doughtful" had me in hysterics on the floor. And now i'm hungry for bread.

I love you.

Consider yourself hugged.

This is exactly why I am writing these thing. Excuse the grammar. I am glad I can make you laugh. I dont care how I spell. In fact it makes it more real that I speak from my heart and you are worried about my grammar.

You all are missing the disipline deal. Wrong disipline leads to world failure. Like it is today. Very few if any get proper disipline. Most get beaten, some get thrown in daycare, some get ignored. If one truely loves there Son/Daughter they will disipline them with respect, not anger. With love and not hate, Patients and not short fuse wrath. If you do not see disipline as a tool to mold them into respect with love. I and my brothers had proper disipline and we have all thanked our father for giving us whoopen to save us from the real dangers. I in one hand would rather get a whoopen than become a druggy fool which is hard to unhook from. Or get a whoopen rather than become a lazy lump. Or get a whoopen instead of getting killed cause I lipped of to the wrong person. When I got a whoopen, he would set me down explain how I had refused to to the right thing. Explained that we had gone over the result of purposely breaking the rule, then he would say I get the whoopen "not a blistering, brusing, hateful, mean whoopen but a I wish I didnt have to do this, but you must see you need to think harder next time. I would get the whoopen, he then would say you paid the price so it is over and now lets go on with our day. There was no hate, no bitterness, Cause it helped me to respect authority. WHICH OUR WORLD TODAY LACKS SEVERILY!! SO Now I have thanked him. If you think there is a better way you are inventing a new lie, Thats why the world is falling apart. Because your parents did it wrong and you are doing it wrong. I dont have to explain it anymore. It is so clear that is the Reason that we start off wrong.

No you cant spank an adult. They are past the age of learning respect. If they dont have it yet they are most likely stuck in that pattern. Take a prisoner, if they get to watch Tv and play in prison what is they punishment. It was originally designed to create punishment so that they would relearn they must have respect. Sorry they get treated with go to your room and they dont learn crap. Most prisoners reaffend so they can laugh at the fact they dont get punished.

Kids are born SELFISH. Take a baby when he doesnt get his bottle, or his binky, Or a 2-8 year old who throws him/herself on the floor in a tantrum. Or a one year old who throws stuff off the table just because you said not to. Oh ya, they know when they are past one or so that they can completely disobey. They arent stupid as you would have them. It not that we have to be the king and they have to obey me because I am so great. Its because if we dont teach them REASON they will screw everybody. Most of you dont get it because your stuck in la la land, the land where if you think positive all will be well. BS.
It takes effort to eqaul results.

The whole point about this REASON discussion is "WE ARE NOT getting better as a society" because we are listening to false REASON. Reason that tells us if we just say the right word or if we just dont get serious about our disipline then we create little angles. It just the opposite. Me and 80-90% of my friends got whoopens when we where young. We all are the most giving and and real people I know. Most of us will help anyone in need and give our last dollar to feed someone. But we dont steal, lie or cheat on our wives as well as we all have longterm loving relationships with very "VERY" well behaved and loving kids" Who would also give there own clothes off their back. 90% of all the kids they go to hang out with at public places "Lie, steal, throw tantrums, make faces, dont listen to authority and yell with alot of bad language. So whats up with why REASON can Fix everthing, But False Reason cant fix CRAP.

SO there is a solution to world peace, But it would take a disiplined world to recognise it. If not you wont get 2 people that agree on anything. Which takes REASONING. Which takes truth. Which seems to be hiding because most would like to ignore it.
I am Done so have fun.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Do me a favour and never reproduce, and move to australia where it is mandatory to have a Working with Children license to be in any position of power over children.

you are ignorant, misinformed and pitiful. you are what is wrong with the world. i have no problem with you believing in religion, i wish i had the mental capacity to do so myself, life certainly would be easier. however you use physical force to make up for your stupidity and lack of ability to rationally communicate with a child. Hell, you can't even rationally communicate with adults. not once did you respond to anything i said with REASON, you merely repeated your previous posts. of course you need to hit children to make them understand when you clearly lack the education and mental capacity to reason as an adult.

yes, children are selfish. but how will hitting them help? they will learn that desire = pain. children learn the most obvious lesson. your assaulting them will be remembered while your explanation will not. how dare you punish a child because you are too stupid to clearly explain yourself. how you function around people and in the workplace is a mystery to me. i am 19 and manage my own store and after conversing with you for 2 minutes would never hire you.

Which leads me to my next point. 99% of my friends were never beaten. they were raised as i was on reason and understanding. of this group everyone of them is at university successfully studying Medicine, Law, Engineering, Science, Journalism, or Business Management. i was accepted into a scholar's Literature program which i left after 6 months despite my grades of over 90% to continue my work to earn enough money to put myself through a specialized theatrical technicians course which will allow me to work in Europe or USA and essentially set me up for the rest of my life with as much work as I could ever want or need in a variety of different fields. My day job as i said earlier is to manage one of the busier bookstores in the state. Tell me that we are what is wrong with the world. we are successful intelligent young people who will lead the world away from people like you. we will heal your children, lead your countries, build your automobiles, run the economy, write novels plays and poetry, create works of beauty and explore the universe.

Oh, and i'm still chuckling at the fact you believe the way to world peace is hitting children. put that on a bumper sticker or t-shirt and see how you go. come back and let us know.

you are pathetic. you are an abuser and in some countries (Such as my own) you would be locked up and have your children taken from you for your behaviour. You will be punished for your actions. Faith in God does not make you immune to His wrath.

Look at me! I'm a prostitute robot from the future!

Man I wish I was done, but you make me want to talk forever.

If I was An abuser then I would do as you say. Create fear to take away pleasure. I dont abuse anything. My child and I are able to enjoy everyday together and he plays with all kinds of different kids. He is one of the most respected kids wherever he goes. Soccer games, movies, church, camp, and neighborhood. He knows how to have fun without being sneaky and mean, destructive or dangerous. I encourage him with anything he wants to do and we work on wooden cars, legos, bicycle ramps, dirt holes,as well as games and puzzles. He does not have anything to FEAR. I love him. He knows that if he wants something he asks, if he breaks something he tells and no matter what he tells the truth. He knows I wont punish him for that.

So seeing your a bright 19 year old and know everything. Please have some kids so they can give you a treat. When their older and have their kids you can make sure with the great world you will be living in with rapist and molesters and murders and drugatics, "that cant fit in the jail system". Make sure you have fun looking for another planet to move to. Because if you stay here you will be the one getting bent over, and not for a whoopen.

And if I am ignorant, misinformed, and pitiful- why is it that you have no words of any kind of wisdom? You havent raised any kids to their adulthood. You havent said anything that would fix any problem. Yet I have fixed 1000's of problems with dozens of businesses and have many thousands of friends around the globe. Your wisdoms seems to be calling other people names so you can make yourself feel better.

Oh and its so funny how you get "hitting kids" as your main theme. I say a little whoopen to a completely out of control child and you insert a full crap beating. My whoopens wouldnt hurt a child for more than 5 seconds. They create a type of atmosphere that an adult doesnt have to have. Adults can reason " unless they are a fool".
You must be a complete genius to think that an adult getting a whoopen is the same as a child. Children cant reason, they only learn to reason when they are put into a position of attention by action that causes their head to gain wisdom. If you try to reason with a 2 year old he wont even know what on earth you are doing. Putting him in a room or corner doenst to him not to throw a tantrum. It only causes him to hide it better. There are a million ways to teach a child but the bible," the oldest book of wisdom around teaches whoopens". Read (Proverbs 19:18 Chasten Your son while there or is hope)or (Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of correction will drive it far from him) or (Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell).

It sounds harsh but you need to put it into perspective. If God would of thought it was ok to be a fool he would NOT have put any disipline rules in there. But in His mind it would be better to get a whoopen than go the hell as a fool. He also says a fool cant reason about him. He says "Only a fool says in his heart there is no God". Weather you believe or not is none of my business, but I would rather die by stoning than see you go to HELL. Sorry but if you could see truth like a parent can see for their child, You would see why God is in no way wanting to see you go to hell.

I have show reason. You show dreams of a perfect world. I put it into perspective. Thats reason.

you are pathetic. you are an abuser and in some countries (Such as my own) you would be locked up and have your children taken from you for your behaviour. You will be punished for your actions. Faith in God does not make you immune to His wrath.

Why would I be pathetic, Because you sound like you dont have anything to say but BS? You havent given one reason that any truth exsist. You havent provided any evidence of anything. If you are so smart, look up Kent Hovind. He has 1 million dollars available for anyone who can prove evolution. So far no real proof exsist. It takes more faith to believe there is no God than that There is. Thats not Pathetic or crazy. Its clear and you are the fool.

Dont worry I was once where you are. But Truth prevails when you look for it. When you have no respect for the Truth all you get is bable. I have provided all kinds of debate material and you have provided the you think you know it all. I am waiting for your brain to unlock and poor out some breath taking evindence as to why you believe by REASON that ther is no God or why you believe that you can get the results of a perfect world by hard work alone. If you work hard some idiot will want what you have and take it. So where does that put you??

We already have laws that make it illeagal to do anything yet crime still pays. Jails keep getting bigger. How are you going to get those numbers down.

I have given what I think makes our Reason most prosperous. Following God will make us Happier, stronger, eternal, and when He gets done with this world like he did in the flood. We will have him to rule over us. And then only will we see true peace!!!! Until then there aint a chance. The only reason I say that is because He says that. The ways of the world lead to death (eternal death)

Where is your wisdom? And what is your base?

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell

Now I'm getting tired of this bible crap, but I gotta say, if I ever have children and they obviously try to mess with me and do everything within their power with the sole purpose of pissing me off, I'm gonna box their ears.

And I'm saying that as someone who has spent a significant part of his childhood at a boarding school which was led by incompetent jerks whose concept of 'upbringing' could be summed up as "do whatever I say, no matter how stupid or unjust, or you'll be sorry."
Now that's arguably the worst thing you can say to a child. The only thing the child will learn is that you can do whatever you damn well please, including abusing the others, as long as you're stronger than them.

Above all I think a child should know and understand the rules. Of course, being a child, it will test their limits and try everything it can think of to get away with bending or breaking the rules. And that's when punishment is appropriate - when the child understands that it's being punished for breaking the rules, and at the same time learns that breaking the rules has consequences.
Whether that punishment is a verbal reprimand, house arrest or a smack around the ears depends of course on the situation. It goes without saying that causing bodily pain should be used as a last resort.
Still, most of the time it's not the punishment but the possibility of punishment that prevents a child (or adult, for that matter) from breaking the rules. And IMNSHO, just as important as punishment is to abide by your own rules, too. And that's what many parents neglect to do.

Consider yourself hugged.

This post was edited by null on Oct 04, 2007.

I have show reason. You show dreams of a perfect world. I put it into perspective. Thats reason.

No my friend, that isn't reason.

and your not showing me anything besides YOUR perspective. Nothing else, and it's not one I'd like to entertain my life with.

I don't understand what reason is in your dictionary but in my and i'm sure many other it is a an explanation or justification or an event.

I'm going to repeat that because I"ve said this before and it doesnt seem like you got it at all

REASON IS AN EXPLANATION, A JUSTIFICATION FOR A CAUSE OR AN EVENT.

God NEITHER a cause, nor a justification nor an explanation.

What I don't seem to understand is your constant need to prove the fact that God did this and what you are doing is right. By all means, it might be, could be, and is a decent way of living your life. But that doesnt mean anyother way besides yours is wrong. There are a million people in this world, and that many ways of living life. Your merely a spec in the differences. Why the need to prove yourself and your way.

Now please answer this, what is your problem with my thoughts, views or decisions. You've made it clear that you are refusing to even look or try and see that we are having a DISCUSSION.

Again, this is a DISCUSSION your imposing your THOUGHT ON US.
NONE OF US LIKE THAT.

I'm writing in capital letters because I dont want to hear about the BIBLE again if I want to know about it, I'll read it myself thank you. Unless you have something DIFFERENT to say, say it or dont bother writing.

Foosh... Aaughh!!... Foosh... Aauuggghh!! - Cold spray deodorant

This post was edited by jael on Oct 04, 2007.

Do not withold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell).

What kind of religion are you into exactly? Since when we should interpret the bible literally? If you do that, then I assume you also believe in do to others what they do to you. If they punch you, you'll punch them back and so forth.

At any rate, I agree with null here. You guys stop with this crap. Punishing kids by beating them up will lead to nothing if not hatred. When my nephews misbehave (they are almost 8, almost 5 and 3 years old) they are put in a corner without doing nothing for a while, and they soon come back to their senses. They have never been beaten by their parents, and they are the most adorable kids I know.

At the same time, only reason won't do anything to the kid. If they misbehave, the parents should take some actions. Actions that are never physical though, unless they do something very dangerous that might endanger their life (like a 3 years old kid trying to cross the street alone after he was told not to do that). Only in that case it could be done, even though I'd rather avoid the whole thing to begin with.

To Mel: I think it is a little hard to talk about things you haven't experienced yet. I have the experience only of my nephews, because I don't have kids of my own yet. I know you're bright and intelligent, but this is not all. You're still only 19, so despite all, you might not have a full experience of things (not saying that I do, but I am at least a little older than you, and have experienced more things in this world).

When I was younger (and hey I am close to 25 only!!), I strongly believed that the world could be change and bla bla bla. Unfortunately I have already realized that this is just a bunch of crap. World will not change, because there aren't enough people interested in changing it. And Mel, you say that people like you, bright and so forth, are those who will rule countries, save children and so forth. Well, I honestly hope that this new generation of yours is not going to be like this generation of politicians, doctors and so on.

My suggestion is for both of you guys to stop arguing like this. It will lead to nothing, because in any case you're both keeping your own ideas, and won't accept anything else. I am not even getting into siding with one or the other (even though I kind of stated my opinion).

On a side note: children have been abused in the past and will be in the future. It just takes 1 bastard out of a thousand good parents for kids to be abused. Just so you can relate being Australian: think about what the British have done to the Aborigines. The trend was to take the kids away from their parents in order to have them marry British people to destroy completely the darker race.

Unfortunately we can say how bad, wrong, horrible is to beat a child (and I can't agree more to that), but things are not gonna change. There are always going to be people who will hit their child when they do something bad. In other words, I think this whole discussion is kinda pointless :(

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Just so you know I showed you 3 verses from the King James Version of the bible. I know ther are a 100 verses that say you treat others how you want to be treated but that doesnt apply for the training of kids. If so they wouldnt be anything but spoiled. Those other verses are saying how you should treat others in respect to business, help, marrige, and to a certain extent it could imply dont over disipline. I want to be disiplined right. Not over disiplined, so Thats how I would do it. I wouldnt want 25 years in prison for stealing a piece of candy from a store. Not that I would but...

Reason From the dictionary: A statement offered in explanation or justification. :a sufficient ground or explanation or logical defence, :The thing that makes some fact intelligible (CAUSE) <want to know the --- for problems> :The power of comprehinding, inferring, or thinking esp. in orderly rational ways :the power of the intellect by which man attains to truth or knowledge :to persuade or influence by the use of reason.

Well I used reasoning to tell why I think reasoning only works if you have solid truth. My points were that the bible and God have lots of evidence of exsisting and bringing results, (good results). If we reason that we can fix something by not doing anything or by wrong reasoning we get nowhere, even if it sounds good. Example. If I am going to plant a lawn and I want to know how to get good results of a plush green yard, then I would get some knowledge of the subject, then REASON what I should do. If I talk to someone with the Greenest grass a plushest grass in the neighborhood and he says do this this and this. But the guy down the street with a brown yard says do thi this and this. I would reason it out and thats what I would work towards.

You guys arent reasoning anything. I have had success and so i share it. I also share why I believe I have and will have even more success by REASONING. (and no it is not because I believe in whoopens). Success has been thru solid truth reasoning. (You can achieve temporary success by watering the yard with fertilizer, but dont over do it or you will have a brown yard like the guy down the street.)

I to, use harder disipline as a very very last resort, but with out it there would be a society like the one that is coming up.
Polititions that use lies and force to get in place. Presidents who sleep with prostitutes. Presidents who help governments buy nuclear technology to use against us from us. Presidents who help get money by helping drug lords. See they werent raised right, or they would respect life. Instead the are selfish and screw us.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!

Amen.

*SCNR*

cu, w0lf.

Naturally, I love Jesus very much. I love him so much that I'd like to crucify him all over again.

Honestly, I read what you just wrote, and for the first time sense I started keeping track of this thread I finished one of your posts Capital, and frankly if it weren't for reading everyone else's responses this would sound like utter drivel.

Granted, I'm not saying it isn't but what is the point you are even arguing anymore? I noticed your are shifting the conversation away from something that people here seem to just not agree with you on, or at least you are trying to anyway. You keep mentioning the solid truth. Well I hate to tell you this, but regardless of faith a several thousand year old book that's probably been mistranslated by people over the years, and is constantly interpreted in no less than a dozen ways per passage isn't exactly solid. In fact, history is a very liquid thing period, due to how accurate records on historical events are, and recordings way of just disappearing over time anyway. So no, you really don't have a solid truth to base any argument on if you are going with the Bible.

But I'm not particularly certain that I want to waist my breath on arguing with you too much. But keep up the post whoring, sir. I kind if giggle at your lack of spell checking skills and partial inability to use the shift key.

--Jami Yeah, that's gonna sting in the morning.

Well, what is the truth? how do we know anything is true and what kind of truth are you exactly looking for?
Our existance? Our perceptions? the ol' who am I? and what and I doing here?
we have no real proof philosophically, who we are, what we are and in most situations will land up in an aporia of sorts.

Well I hate to tell you this, but regardless of faith a several thousand year old book that's probably been mistranslated by people over the years, and is constantly interpreted in no less than a dozen ways per passage isn't exactly solid

You all are bringing it up so??

You have obvoiusly not studied the bible because the statements your making are like telling a car mechanic that cars cant run on gasoline, thats just what people are led to believe thru propaganda. yet millions of people buy gas every day.

Do you really think that it is impossible to see truth? If that is the case you are stuck man. With out truth we can do anything we want, there are no laws. Nothing can be considered wrong. If the bible was wrong, buddy, believe me it would be in stone by now. There would be news medias with super printouts of it at every page and on every website. If they could find a contradiction or a place that made no sense or was MISTRANSLATED they would love to burn it. My point is its people like you who say things without really knowing anything except rumors. I here 20 people every day teach about it. I listen to the Preacher station every day as well as many other talk radio shows. Savage, Rush, Sean H. I would say that some teachers for sure try to twist it around a bit. But it is pretty easy to tell its not in the bible because they will tell you "This is how it was interpretted to me" right there begins a problem. Even a young teen can read the bible and understand it and how to interpret it. You dont need to be taught how to read it.

It is not like you say. It is cut and dry. It is so easy to see it is not mistranslated because there is the same message on every page. Jesus is God/Lord- you need a savior-God is in control. The stories , the history, the flood, kindoms, prophecies. All are backed up with historic fact and proof, over and over again. So much so it is reguarded as the most accurate history book in history. Oh but the idiot down the street that hasnt studied it but can make the comment it a pack of lies or its wacked. He's just pushing it away because he believes that there is no way to know. Its like having 40 people over thousands of years tell you with 66 books that we are going to need God and heres how. OH and all their stories line up 100%. If it were not so, the world would have it on every billboard. It is the only truth that keeps making the WORLD go insane. They dont want to hear it. Just like the bible prophecied 3000 years ago.

You really have to wonder why a person would want to hang a healer and a miricle worker on a cross. If I said I could heal your every need right now and did, why would you want to kill me. Must be something to do with people not wanting to see help as a good thing. Thats why it is so easy to see that you are blind.

Utter drivel this, you are either going to see that Reason thru God will prevail or you wont. Either way I win.

If your in a big toilet bowl and someone reaches out his hand to lift you and you refuse, you will join the rest of the crap. No matter what you think, there is truth, you just arent able to see it like the Billion that do. So what if 6 billion want to believe there isnt truth. I always new there were more blind people than seeing. The bible teaches, "wide is the gate to hell and narrow the path to heaven and few there are that will find it". If your not looking, believe me you will not find it.

One thing we learn from history is that we dont learn from history!!!