Reading Love and Lifesense

What I was upset about wasn't the fact that he stated that you see less females in engineering courses. This is quite a fact, also because females are discriminated in that sense. After a while you've been hearing that you're dumb because you're a girl and you are not capable of studying engineering because of that... well you must admit you aren't exactly encouraged to keep studying that stuff, but you feel like studying something else, in which there are no discriminations.

What disturbed me is the fact that Deimos seems to be one of those mysogins who believe that all women act all girly girl, study arts and literature... and are inferior to men. This crap is real bullshit, and makes me wanna scream.

Several of my high school girl friends studied engineering, and prevailed over very talented males. I decided to switch faculty, but it was only because I couldn't put up with the frustration of always been looked down to.

I remember quite clearly one time when I was studying engineering. I and two friends of mine (a girl and a guy) had a problem with something the professor taught. It was about maths analysis... in particular it was either Laplace transform or Fourier's. He clearly skipped something, and got a result out of nowhere, and we couldn't figure out what was wrong, because he used a way to solve it that wasn't described in the book. So the three of us went to the colloquium with the professor. First one to get in (since he was receiving single student by single student) was my girl friend. She was bashed to death, because she was "too ignorant and not intelligent to study engineering". Then it was my turn. I got in, and I remember that f***ing jerk saying "I think it's best if you change faculty... women aren't good for studying engineering, physics or scientific subjects" (on a side note: my mom got a degree in chemistry with 110/110 magna cum laude... but maybe chemistry is a humanistic field?!). Then it was my guy friend turn. He got in, and the jerk apologized for messing up during class, and he explained in the detail what was the missing part, and how to procede. Now, how do you think I felt after this? We are girls, and so we don't deserve to study engineering? Is that what guys think?!

Not all girls are all jolly girly girl! I am not one of those, and will never be. Most of my friends aren't either, and I don't even think I found so many "girly girl" girls in my faculty... foreign languages is part of the humanistic group though, isn't it?!

Probably if males didn't keep females at a distance, you guys would be able to see more girls sitting next to you in your engineering courses. But otherwise... hell why should we keep studying something just for being discriminated? Because I can assure you that girls aren't discriminated only during their studies, but even later on. A female engineer is not considered the same as a male engineer, no matter if her grades during school were higher than his. And this sucks! I even have the proofs of what I am saying. The same girl friend of mine graduated not very long ago. She got out with 110/110, so perfect score, and even quite high for getting out of electronics engineering. Well she applied for a job: they were looking for an electronics engineer who had graduated on time and stuff like that. Can you believe it? She didn't get the job, but a guy did. A guy we both knew and who got out with 102/110. What do you think this means?!

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

This post was edited by andromacha on Jun 09, 2007.

On a sidenote: I didnt want to reply to this totally biased, prejudiced post of Deimos, because it surely would have ended in a mere hatred, scorched earth-type rant.

In German: "volle Breitseite inklusive Napalm und rostigen Nägeln - ich krieg sooo nen Hals, wenn ich solch einen macho-mäßigen, diskriminierenden scheißdreck lesen muss!"

Good to see others do think the same way but wouldnt allow themselves such 'politeness', Andromecha ;)

cu, w0lf.

Fuck off the 30 seconds posting limit!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Jun 11, 2007.

Yes, that is the biggest prejudice some men have towards women.

I'm all for equality, but in this case I have to support Deimos's statement. And it's not a prejudice but a simple observation.
In my electronics engineering class there was one woman. In the class below there were two. Mechanics - zero. Tech diploma - started with two, one dropped out.
Female programmers: I know, hmm, I think two.
Female car mechanics: zero.
Number of female participants at the last IT trade show I attended: one, and she worked in communications, not in the IT field.
Hairdressers: maybe one male for 1,000,000 females.

Switzerland does a lot for equal chances. Everybody - male or female - can choose their own profession and courses. It would be easy for a women to get a tech education.
If she wanted to.

And that's got nothing to do with being stupid or smart but with personal preferences. Militant women's libbers may be pissed off by these observations as much as they want, unless they find a way to interest more women in tech stuff it's always gonna be this way. And for one they can't blame it on us men. (Well they blame it on men anyway, because, you know, us men are to blame for everything. But that's not the point.)

"God is dead." - Nietzsche, 1882 "Nietzsche is dead." - God, 1900

This post was edited by null on Jun 09, 2007.

Well .. its also about how jobs in the technology, but esp. in the IT field are presented to females.

Its not that good.
Not even average, but worse.

Eg. my beloved one knows how to use computers, but was driven away (and nearly insane) by awfully presented, non-individualistic, self-centered schooling of IT and engineering.

By now, she wants to become an (landscape) architect, is in search of a second-year apprenticeship in carpenting / cabinetmaking and not of all afraid of technology. Just the over-nerdy, prejudiced asshole type-of-IT is NOT her choice. And I'm happy with that ;-P

cu, w0lf.

Fuck off the 30 seconds posting limit!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Jun 11, 2007.

By now, she wants to become an (landscape) architect

Well there you go! She doesn't strike me as the type of wanting to represent everything in pink shades :P Architecture is by many wrongly considered part of the humanistic field, but surprise... it's not! Here it is even in the same faculty of engineering, even though they merely share the place, because I don't think there are common professors.

To be perfectly honest, when I was studying engineering, aside from loving maths, geometry and electronics (I loved creating circuits and do computations about them), I didn't dislike programming. At least the few things they taught me in C: And I did manage to create some little fun programs (more advanced than "hello world" ;)). I just couldn't stand the pressure of having 1 month and a half of course, and only one week before the exam. In the first year I was supposed to take 13 exams, and I took about half of them.

I remember being awake very late at night with big cups of coffee to study... I was in the kitchen at the table, and my mom was there ironing. That's the only thing I want to remember with affection about engineering. Nothing else. Getting in that faculty now gives me the creeps. To think about how women are abused and so forth!

Heck, guys are known to be more "talented" towards that kind of things. But it's not that we, girls, consider the males who study foreign languages as gay! There aren't several of them, but they are not discriminated whatsoever. If anything, girls really try to help them out if they need help. And not out of physical interest. The typical foreign language male student is either engaged or not exactly... the right age. I mean, out of those I know, one of them is engaged (they've been together for ages and they share the same apartment), and another one is 32. Now, with all the due respect to those who passed the 30s, I think that girls who are in their early 20s rarely want to go with those who are way older than they are. But of course, it depends on the girl. At any rate, that's why I said that we help them but not out of interest.

In fact, at foreign languages, we are even quite happy to see some guys sitting among us. We realize that it is an exception of course, but we tend to help them. On the contrary, what I noticed at engineering was the huge competition. Heck, if I need notes because I missed a class, even an unknown person will allow me to photocopy his/hers. But at engineering... NO. If you missed a class, well you're screwed. Either you rely on close friends or you're totally f***ed. I mean, do you think this is the right behavior?! It seems that other people are happy to see you fail vs them prevail. It just makes me sick to my stomach. And you cannot imagine how many times I have heard guys teasing girls at that darn engineering faculty.

Really, before switching major, I was really afraid that university would have been just the same shit of high school, where everybody teases the others, where you're shun by the group and where people tend to be evil towards you. I am so glad that I switched major!! I realized that it is not like this. University can be friendly! People aren't out there to f**k you over, but they are kind and helpful. I am just so glad I took myself out of that engineering shit!!

I think that the only way for girls to be encouraged to study what they like (including computer science and stuff) is to build up a better system. I mean, engineering should become girl friendly. Guys don't reason better or program better because they have a penis. They do because they receive the education that girls aren't allowed to have. Why? Not out of our choice, but out of discrimination.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

They do because they receive the education that girls aren't allowed to have. Why? Not out of our choice, but out of discrimination.

The rivalry and other fucked up shit is one of the reason why I stopped studying commercial information technology. I've always been encouraging girls to get interested within the IT field and always tried to help them if asked, although I'm a smart ass and thus, talk too much :D

Probably I overdo it sometimes - no matter what gender - but I always try to ask folks if I'm wearing them out with my bubble, so the damage stays mostly on the low side :)

Basically I do not understand, whats so funny about failing. Probably those guys are not grown-ups yet, but still are the nerdy idiotic children, those folks you call in German "Kellerkinder". And when they finally grow up - either when trying to get a real job or by reaching the age of 30 - they whine around why there arent any females in the IT field who do understand their interests and fascination.

Like this poor guy named Deimos.

cu, w0lf.

Fuck off the 30 seconds posting limit!

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Jun 12, 2007.

I'm not whining about people not sharing my interests. I have plenty of people who do. I'm annoyed that the people i have tried to develop a relationship with generally arent mature enough to carry through the first few weeks/months to something more.

In addition, partly because im drunk, mainly because im feeling vengeful at being made out to be something im not, I'm going to take each post on this thread apart because im either going to acquit myself or go out in a blaze so vengeful it'll fucking scar your collective retinas. As I have said before, you stick words in my mouth and ill stick my vengeful fist in yours.

Yes, that is the biggest prejudice some men have towards women. Well, those who believe such crap are just idiots who cannot see beyond the tip of their nose!

Do you think that just because you study engineering you're a smart geek? Not at all my dear, not at all. If you attract people who are like that, this doesn't mean that all the females are that way. Probably that is the only kind of girl you can get, because the others are busy with people who are more intelligent than you and less prejudiced.

Just because girls are much better in arts and literature, this doesn't mean that we are complete idiots! On my part I have to say that I do study foreign languages, and that I took some engineering courses. I took exams, and I passed them well, but I decided to change faculty because of people like you! Yes, like you! Idiots who are prejudiced towards women. There are these males who believe that they are the smartest things God has ever created, and that they can be the only ones who can use a computer excellently, that women don't understand anything about maths, physics, geometry or whatnot... Those are the kind of guys that make me sick to my stomach and make me want to throw up.

Deimos, I am really disappointed at you. I really thought that you were different than this, honestly. I think that before judging other people, or rather girls, you should look at yourself. A girl with some common sense would not date a guy like you, not even if you pay her. I think you should change your attitude a great deal before you can get a girl who can actually have some respect for you.

For now, I am nauseated. I think you should reconsider your position, because what you stated about girls is definitely offensive, and not true at all.

AS far as i'm aware there is nowhere in my posts where I've said categorically that women are incapable of the same professions, or skills, as men. This i will continue to refer back to as STFU Point One.

To continue STFUP1 Ill say that theres plenty of evidence on NAO itself regarding my attitude to women and their aptitude, giving some discussion of possible paths for Rosy to the tune of becoming a machinist: http://www.netalive.org/topics/42195?find=42211#42211

Hook, line, sinker, rod and copy of Angling Times. I'm feeling generous, so I'll ignore the personal attack, and instead go on to say that I really dont understand the apparent whirlwhind I've whipped up by a few comments that to me dont state anything categorically except that I havent found anyone thats meshed with me and hasnt fucked me over.

All this bull about me apparently stating I dont consider women to be capable of the same subjects, or that im the smartest thin god ever created... WHAT. THE. FUCK? Ive said I dont believe in god, unless hes a sadist, and ive never said that women arent capable. Moving on to the next post ( since all these posts overlap saving my time with a userbase Im rapidly losing respect for, in turn, for being made the subject of a witchhunt..) we have HAWKEYE's post:

Deimos, I imagine what you were trying to say was that your typical female isn't interested in math and science. Statistically, this is something that cannot be denied. However, I wouldn't go to suggest that this is merely due to the fact that one has a vagina and the other has a penis.

Many differences placed between men and women are fake. Differences were added because it helps to attract a mate to be more 'feminine' or 'masculine' than the other. Now times are now, and to be female means you have to be a nurse, play with dolls, and dress in pink. And tom-boys are notorious for not liking to do such things. It isn't because they are dysfunctional, but because girls and boys are very similar mentally at a young age. I would go far as to say if you gave a little boy only dolls and pink dresses to play with, they'd grow to like it like a girl would.

Though most people probably scoff to read that, because nobody likes to hear of a person playing the 'role' of the other counterpart. We're all brainwashed in a way that men are supposed to act one way and women another. I didn't even make this realization until I reached Italy. In America, while there is this distinction, it isn't as strong. At a certain point, when you are an adult, you are just as capable professionally as another adult. Sex is not an issue.

Italy, in this respect, seems more behind on this. Male and female are big issues, and I suppose it doesn't help that every physical object according to the italian language must be masculine or feminine. Prejudice is still apparent here in Italy, because as far as that is concerned, it is no different than america was about 20 years ago. 20 years ago in America, women had to get second jobs as a nurse or secretary. If they weren't, they were housewives.

So in short, what you say isn't true, Deimos. Perhaps you are much like the millions of others who have grown up with a reconceived notion of what women are and what they are capable of. If you ever have a daughter and you never teach her the sciences because she's female, can you ever really expect her to become a scientist or an engineer? That's a question I leave to you to answer.

Relevant parts here ( by which I mean parts im going to steamroller) are paragraphs 1, 2 and 5.

Para 1: First sentence basically correct. Your average female picked up off the street wont readily launch into a discourse on science. Third sentence I never made any allusion to. Second sentence is irrelevant.

Para 2: Again , I dont believe in this crap.Nature and nurture in equal parts. Hell, to my cost in some circles, im going to say that my parents gave me a load of fucking barbie dolls to play with cos at that point in my childhood we were quite poor.

Para 5: Its always been my intention to raise properly educated kids. Regardless of sex, theyre going to know how to do the ironing, fix a car, wash clothes, solder, cook dinner, wire a plug and all the rest of it. Theres no point being specialised since that leaves gaping holes in your armoury of knowledge. My kids will always have the personal choice of pursuing any interest they have and I intend to support them fully, just as my parents have in my many varied changes of course.Again, I'll refer to STFUP1: No where did I say that women are incapable of performing the same tasks as men.

I'm all for equality, but in this case I have to support Deimos's statement. And it's not a prejudice but a simple observation.
In my electronics engineering class there was one woman. In the class below there were two. Mechanics - zero. Tech diploma - started with two, one dropped out.
Female programmers: I know, hmm, I think two.
Female car mechanics: zero.
Number of female participants at the last IT trade show I attended: one, and she worked in communications, not in the IT field.
Hairdressers: maybe one male for 1,000,000 females.

Switzerland does a lot for equal chances. Everybody - male or female - can choose their own profession and courses. It would be easy for a women to get a tech education.
If she wanted to.

And that's got nothing to do with being stupid or smart but with personal preferences. Militant women's libbers may be pissed off by these observations as much as they want, unless they find a way to interest more women in tech stuff it's always gonna be this way. And for one they can't blame it on us men. (Well they blame it on men anyway, because, you know, us men are to blame for everything. But that's not the point.)

I love Null. Hes lovely.

All im going to say at this point is that to add to this, the women I counted in my initial posts as on my course at brookes are those *left* after the first year. We originally started with six. Three left. One left after getting the highest marks of the year for some as yet unknown reason. Another left in the first month or so because she wasnt happy being away from home. The other one just stopped coming to lectures and no one knew what happened to her.

I went, again, as has been referenced in my previous posts, to an all girls school for part of my sixth form. This school held the correct view that anyone could accomplish anything if they were driven hard enough. And yet if you asked any one of the girls, you probably on the whole wouldnt get engineering as an answer. Youd get loads of doctors, but maybe only two or three engineers, and the majority of the rest going into psychology/social sciences/english. I personally only know of one girl with an intent to do civil engineering. In fear of this becoming another bit of "evidence" of supposed bias, im going to say here that one of my best friends in oxford is Karri. Shes doing physics at *THE* oxford instead of oxford brookes. Shes doing stuff in her first year thats on the final exam after three years at other universities. Shes hard core, and I have no hope of catching up to her.

Moving on...

What I was upset about wasn't the fact that he stated that you see less females in engineering courses. This is quite a fact, also because females are discriminated in that sense. After a while you've been hearing that you're dumb because you're a girl and you are not capable of studying engineering because of that... well you must admit you aren't exactly encouraged to keep studying that stuff, but you feel like studying something else, in which there are no discriminations.

What disturbed me is the fact that Deimos seems to be one of those mysogins who believe that all women act all girly girl, study arts and literature... and are inferior to men. This crap is real bullshit, and makes me wanna scream.

Several of my high school girl friends studied engineering, and prevailed over very talented males. I decided to switch faculty, but it was only because I couldn't put up with the frustration of always been looked down to.

I remember quite clearly one time when I was studying engineering. I and two friends of mine (a girl and a guy) had a problem with something the professor taught. It was about maths analysis... in particular it was either Laplace transform or Fourier's. He clearly skipped something, and got a result out of nowhere, and we couldn't figure out what was wrong, because he used a way to solve it that wasn't described in the book. So the three of us went to the colloquium with the professor. First one to get in (since he was receiving single student by single student) was my girl friend. She was bashed to death, because she was "too ignorant and not intelligent to study engineering". Then it was my turn. I got in, and I remember that f***ing jerk saying "I think it's best if you change faculty... women aren't good for studying engineering, physics or scientific subjects" (on a side note: my mom got a degree in chemistry with 110/110 magna cum laude... but maybe chemistry is a humanistic field?!). Then it was my guy friend turn. He got in, and the jerk apologized for messing up during class, and he explained in the detail what was the missing part, and how to procede. Now, how do you think I felt after this? We are girls, and so we don't deserve to study engineering? Is that what guys think?!

Not all girls are all jolly girly girl! I am not one of those, and will never be. Most of my friends aren't either, and I don't even think I found so many "girly girl" girls in my faculty... foreign languages is part of the humanistic group though, isn't it?!

Probably if males didn't keep females at a distance, you guys would be able to see more girls sitting next to you in your engineering courses. But otherwise... hell why should we keep studying something just for being discriminated? Because I can assure you that girls aren't discriminated only during their studies, but even later on. A female engineer is not considered the same as a male engineer, no matter if her grades during school were higher than his. And this sucks! I even have the proofs of what I am saying. The same girl friend of mine graduated not very long ago. She got out with 110/110, so perfect score, and even quite high for getting out of electronics engineering. Well she applied for a job: they were looking for an electronics engineer who had graduated on time and stuff like that. Can you believe it? She didn't get the job, but a guy did. A guy we both knew and who got out with 102/110. What do you think this means?!

So here in fact is revealed the roots of your own prejudice. Oh, im sorry, should I say your own personal experience?

SHOCK HORROR DEIMOS OWNS IN AN IRONIC STATEMENT REFENCING BOTH THIS POST AND ONE OF HIS OWN, CAVING SAID ARGUMENTS IN A STROKE! SURELY NOT!

Fish, barrel, bang.

Again, STFUP1. You could have had that guys ass, made him lose his job. That is something I have no qualms with, at all. Although youve probably guessed that I am the very model of a modern vengeful bastard.

Frankly I couldnt give a shit about the majority of you guys who have chosen to read something into my posts, or more likely not bothered to read my posts at all.

My first post made no reference to misogyny, only to women being of incompatible interests to my own.

Second post, I make a thin reference to the women on my engineering course, making NO COMMENT WHATSOEVER ON THEIR APTITUDE FOR THE SUBJECT (FUCK THE LOT OF YOU) only on the character of them.

My third post was a bit of dark sarcasm, that apparently really should be taught in schools because you guys apparently dont understand this anymore. I even attempt a little humour at the end. In return im marked as a misogynist, someone who likes to keep women chained to the stove when as has been born out elsewhere I dont tolerate that shit for a minute.

Netalive, Far from the Maddening Crowds?

More like Netalive, Home of the Spanish Inquistion.

Sir Deimos, Beater of Ass.

Probably if males didn't keep females at a distance, you guys would be able to see more girls sitting next to you in your engineering courses. But otherwise... hell why should we keep studying something just for being discriminated? Because I can assure you that girls aren't discriminated only during their studies, but even later on. A female engineer is not considered the same as a male engineer, no matter if her grades during school were higher than his. And this sucks! I even have the proofs of what I am saying. The same girl friend of mine graduated not very long ago. She got out with 110/110, so perfect score, and even quite high for getting out of electronics engineering. Well she applied for a job: they were looking for an electronics engineer who had graduated on time and stuff like that. Can you believe it? She didn't get the job, but a guy did. A guy we both knew and who got out with 102/110. What do you think this means?!
So here in fact is revealed the roots of your own prejudice. Oh, im sorry, should I say your own personal experience?
SHOCK HORROR DEIMOS OWNS IN AN IRONIC STATEMENT REFENCING BOTH THIS POST AND ONE OF HIS OWN, CAVING SAID ARGUMENTS IN A STROKE! SURELY NOT!

Oh and... sorry, I really cannot grasp how I would be prejudiced here. This is mere fact, not prejudice. And the fact that there are several men who consider women as inferior to them is again another real fact unfortunately. No, I don't think you own at all by the way.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

but tend to like to wrap things up in pink-tinted obfuscation.

I think that women would have a problem with reading something like that. Now, if you're saying that you have never been a mysogin in your posts... please define better this concept. What do you mean exactly by pink-tinted obfuscation?!

I am a woman, and I think that women might read something not very pleasant out of that. Maybe you didn't mean anything bad out of it, but you gotta explain then. Maybe this is not what you meant, and you didn't have better words to express it. However, what you stated there is quite offensive.

For everybody's sake, I will post here the meaning of one of the incriminated words:

Obfuscation: confusion resulting from failure to understand

The fact that this obfuscation is "pink-tinted"... well it's even more offensive! I think that before bashing other posts to death like you did (and by the way the only result you accomplishing with me was to have me laugh out loud at your attempt of dismantling our post piece by piece) you should analyze the meaning of the words you write down. If you don't, well then other people might argue (like I am doing) that what you write is offensive (even though you may not have intended for it to be offensive).

You also stated you love null, because he was trying to put water over the fire you lit. Well, I am sure that his intentions were good, and that he might be right in saying that you didn't mean anything out of that. However, I don't know if null knew exactly the meaning of what you stated, or maybe he even disregarded that particular sentence. He is one of my closest friends, together with Orchid, and I would never hint that he doesn't know English or anything like that. However, since his mother tongue is German, he might really have disregarded that sentence of yours as not important.

On the contrary, I do give extreme importance to words, and even now I am putting a lot of effort in replying your post. I have been thinking twice about things to write, and I even checked on several dictionaries to verify that the word obfuscation had precisely that negative connotation that I attributed to it.

Sooo... I will not have a problem in apologizing if I made a mistake in judging your words. However, I would like the proofs of that. If you can explain exactly what you meant by it, I might take back some of my words. Your explanation though shall not be totally off the wall :P I want to be able to consider that "pink-tinted obfuscation" as something not negative and offensive, and with the only definition and connotation of the word, I definitely cannot. Therefore, I need your help.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

he was trying to put water over the fire you lit. Well, I am sure that his intentions were good, and that he might be right in saying that you didn't mean anything out of that. However, I don't know if null knew exactly the meaning of what you stated,

Oh, I believe I did understand what he wrote quite well. (I'm usually not one to boast, but you might want to check out the reading mark on my CAE grade sheet. My English is not so bad, and I vill not buy this record itis scratched.)

On a side note, and with all due respect yada yada yada, I'm not trying to put water over the fire that Deimos lit. You see, I think it was you and ginsterbusch who started the fire by bashing Deimos for something he didn't say, even after he had attempted to clarify his statement(s). Calling him an idiot, predicting him a lonely death (thanks to his prejudices) and adding lengthy rants about where and how exactly women are being suppressed and looked down upon by arrogant men, ... all based upon a slightly politically incorrect remark which had little to do with what you complained about and to which he had added "in my experience" afterwards... well, what can I say? I'd be pissed off too.

(My original plan was to keep my mouth shut and only intervene if the discussion gets ugly, but since my name has been mentioned...)

"God is dead." - Nietzsche, 1882 "Nietzsche is dead." - God, 1900

This post was edited by null on Jun 14, 2007.