Reading Love and Lifesense

So... am I the only one to think that saying that women like to wrap things up in pink-tinted obfuscation is offensive? I didn't predict a lonely death for him by the way. I even said that I can take back some words of what I said, if he can explain me how what he stated is not offensive.

I did reread all his posts, and I still didn't really understand the clarification about "pink-tinted obfuscation" not being offensive. I am really sorry if I overreacted, but this is a very delicate thing for me, especially because of my own experience. I think I was justified in overreacting for feeling hurt from his words. And if those were not his intentions, well I am still waiting for him to provide an explanation. If he already did, and he clarified what he means with pink-tinted obfuscation, then please point me to that post, because I really did not grasp it (yeah, I must be dense).

On a side note, I know your English is really good Bernie, and I hope you are not thinking that I meant something out of it. The only thing I meant is that I got the negative connotative meaning of that word, and that I even took some time to check out some dictionaries for possible alternatives that didn't have such negative implications.

Again, I am not trying to create a flame war. I only want an answer. You know me. I am not the type to take offenses lightly, especially not on something that still burns when I think about it. So I have two ways to react: either I feel like shit and I keep it for myself, or I speak my mind freely. Lately I have decided to follow the second option, because I am fed up with just taking offenses and not stand up to them.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

I didn't predict a lonely death for him by the way.

No, that was ginsterbusch.

As for standing up... standing up to defend your ideals is good, and in no way did I mean to criticize you for that. However, even tho I can understand where you're coming from concerning the "pink-tinted obfuscation"...

1. I'm not the original author and he's probably better than me at commenting his statements, but to the statement in question he added this -->

   Its not prejudice. Or should it be compulsory to add "In my experience" after everything we write now? [...] My apologies for appearing prejudiced.

   So, if, for example, the majority of girls he knows did tend to wrap everything up in pink-tinted obfuscation, this would be a perfectly legal statement even if you dissect it for hours with a copy of Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary and two linguists at your side.
   Besides, people state prejudices every day. I say stuff beginning with "you girls always ..." all the time. None of the girls present feel offended. (Well, they did object to the statement that the average woman's sense of direction is comparable to that of a comatose crow). And you know why? Because they know that I'm aware it's a prejudice, that I don't mean exactly what I'm saying and that I omit the "in my experience, this doesn't apply to all girls, yada yada" part for simplicity's sake or to tease them.

2. Especially you a a student of languages should know how inexact a science it is: people often say things that, technically speaking, are not 100% correct; they omit little things; they use a wrong word or slightly incorrect grammar. All for the sake of briefness, to avoid awkward and lengthy explanations, and because the mistakes they make are commonly accepted. After all we talk to other human beings who are capable of filling the small gaps and put ambiguous or oversimplified statements of ours into the right context, not to computers that take every little bit of information and process it according to exact and invariable rules. Everybody does this, and if they say something that is technically incorrect but obviously wasn't meant that way, it's just not fair to wave a thick book and exclaim "but according to my dictionary you said..." - especially if they later explicitly stated that it wasn't meant that way.

3. Or let's turn the tables for a second. You ranted about how 'males' keep 'females' at a distance and explained how women in the tech field are always discriminated by the males. I'm a male in the tech field and I know many other male techies who respect women. You offended me and my friends!! I'm gonna write a long long post about how intolerant an idiot you are!!one! Oh wait, I won't. I know that you didn't actually mean "every last man in the world, no exceptions whatsoever, discriminates against women". No offence taken in a rant of yours that technically could be understood as offensive.

4. Even if the pink-tinted statement was meant to be a prejudice (which I don't think, see above, but I'll leave it to the author to clarify it further if he deems it necessary), was it really appropriate to cover it in several thousand characters' worth of lengthy rants about how the author is a misogynist, women are discriminated at your uni, one guy with a slightly less perfect test score got a job instead of a gal with a perfect score (which could have happened for perfectly legal reasons, you know; if all that counted was your test score then job interviews wouldn't be necessary at all), man/woman differences are overrated, there are too many pesticides in strawberries from Spain, in China a bag of rice not only fell over but also burst, and ...?
   (I mean, there was one response that contributed to the discussion - Hawkeye wanting to discuss the man/woman differences - and it practically got washed away by a crypto-feminist crusade to label somebody the enemy of all womankind based upon one statement that was neither particularly discriminating nor meant to be.)

I am not the type to take offenses lightly,

Well, maybe Deimos was telling the truth when he said it wasn't meant to offend.
Then you and ginsterbusch would have wasted all this holy fury on a non-issue and at the same time quite probably helped convince another one of the more interesting users that the core of the NAO community is becoming increasingly self-righteous and arrogant.

Consider yourself hugged.

This post was edited by null on Jun 15, 2007.

I didn't predict a lonely death for him by the way.

No, that was ginsterbusch.

Cynism created counter-cynism.

So should I have kept my mouth shut? No, I dont think so.
The proposition of my comment is: "Change your attitude, man! Live is good, if you work on it. Of course, you always may do the other way, be an emotional couch-potatoe und wait till the sun turns into a nova before doing something against that bad attitude. Not my problem, but yours :-P"

cu, w0lf.

Naturally, I love Jesus very much. I love him so much that I'd like to crucify him all over again.

This post was edited by ginsterbusch on Jun 15, 2007.

Live is good, if you work on it. Of course, you always may do the other way, be an emotional couch-potatoe and wait till the sun turns into a nova before doing something against that bad attitude. Not my problem, but yours

Oh, with that I can agree.

Consider yourself hugged.

I think the biggest reason for this stereotype, that females "aren't into..." is social, and societal in inception. I don't believe that females are "naturally" less inclined towards sciences, maths, or other locigal pursuits--accounting, finance also included.
I think that the problem stems from the fact the men are prejudiced in their thinking about what a female is interested in, educationally speaking; which translates to a carreer path.
Women are pushed into the "safe" carreer choices, those containing the "pink frilly obfuscation", as you've so breveloquently stated.

As an employee of a largely male-dominated world of automotive repairs, I can tell you the reactions from a woman in "the fold." It's not expected to see a female working on cars, or selling service on them. Is it because a she can't do the job right? No, the famale can do the job as competently as any male--better usually.
It's the "auxilliary," external, negative influences that cause her troubles. The problem is that females in an so-called male dominated industry, don't get the same respect as their male counterparts. There is a prejudice that a female can't do work involving logic or other left-brain crap. This is societal conditioning.
This is the same conditioning, brain-washing mindset that pressures little girls to go into Home Economics, or Office Skills, and boys to go into Sports, Math, or Sciences--or hunting, for that matter. We like to keep our genders and gender identities separate and distinct. It gives us great comfort in being able to lable, identify, or classify others into neat categories we can then file away in our Rolodex of person archetypes.
The problem is that Nature, and life does not like, or allow for easy classification. Nature likes uncertain, and the undetermined. Nature "fills the gaps"; it hates a vaccuum. In otherwords, Nature will have its "pink-tinted obfuscation" attached to a more logical brain than yours.
And I'll tell you, if you could look past your condition, it might just be that that person is the right one for you.

Perhaps the problem is that as a self-identified techie, you have your own misconceptions about your place in the world. Being a geek, or called one, or considered one, even to a techie-girls mind, it doesn't exactly conjur the image of a passionate lover. That, after all, is what every chick is looking for in a guy she's dating--someone exciting, passionate, and perhaps spontaneous.

Honestly, most of the men techies I meet are just as much head-cases as females--it comes with the territory.

The Cranesbill--a surprising pick by Emmet.

I am in such a relationship and we managed to live together for years, so I think it works ;) I must admit that I spend way much time on my computer since I'm together with null than before. And I've learnt a lot, too. But still he's the one who's spending his whole job life and a lot of his freetime in front of that thing. It could be a little less time he spends before it but I understand he's got some clients in freetime, too, he has to work for.

I think the headline Techie/Non-Techie is also adaptive for several other things people are obsessed with. Say horse-fan/non-horse-fan or SETI-freak/non-SETI-freak, what do I know?

In no relationship people share every little interest. It's just impossible. Take music-taste. Everybody's so different in this, likes different songs and styles. So? That's good. A couple shouldn't be liek twins. That'd be sooo boring.

The most important thing is to be insightful and tolerant and empathising. Nerds who spend hours and hours in front of the machine won't keep the relationship for long and girlfriends who storm in every five minutes, won't either.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

See, that's what I'm talking about. It's the same in every relationship--my Schweetie wants to tell me about his work every night, despite whether or not I'm interested.
Usually I'm not.
I have met a number of his co-workers either at his work, or though my work, or outside work. So even though I don't necessarily care about these people, I've met a number of them. I am compelled to listen for that alone.
There is another reason for listening: to show respect. I care for him, letting him vent about work, those characters.
He does the same, usually, for me, listening attentively, contributing as appropriate.

I absolutely agree about the non-/horse statement It logically applies to all interests, for all people.
Isn't "techie" more an occupation description, rather than a personal description?
I use my own example: I went to school for computers, worked-on, maintained, built them before that point, combining them with all sorts of electronics devices. Currently, I'm looking for a job working on and fixing computers, or audio/video editing, or some combination of the above. All, agreeably, technical things.
I could talk for hours about capturing, editing audio, video, and allll the attendant technical crap. I love doing this stuff, as a job and in my part time. He's the real question: Do I designate myself a Techie?

My view of Self, my personal identity will answer that question.
Conversely, that answer determines where, how I look for a mate, partner, friends.
The fact of the matter is I have so many other ways to identify myself, I don't need to call myself Techie, if I choose not to. Perhaps, if I'm looking for a female, my best bet is to NOT.
More to the point, I do not, usually, call myself a techie. I rightly could. To me, that's the means to the end.
I'd rather call myself a "musicie", or even "roadie", "woodsie", "camp firey", "racie" or some other designation of who I am seen through the lense of my main interest.

As an alternate thought, I involve myself so highly in the technical stuff, that perhaps I shouldn't be looking for someone interested in this same stuff. Perhaps her/his main technical interest should be limited to no more than courteously listening when I speak.
Perhaps it's a better idea to get out in the world and do stuff, besides working behind a screen, or some heat-producing electronical device.
Those are the means to a different end.

The Cranesbill--a surprising pick by Emmet.

This post was edited by zen on Sep 12, 2007.

I wouldn't like to limit myself to dating nerdy women only. There are too few of them (surfing the interweb doesn't count), and the idea that you're already like 60% compatible only because she's into computers is wrong. They can be as great or as messed up as the next girl. Personally, of all women I know there is no visible correlation between their geekdom and their degree of wonderfulness.

I think it's important that when you get together with a nongeek girlfriend, she respects that your job/hobby is great and important to you. If you ever feel you have to justify or apologize to her for being a nerd, or doing what you do, consider if you don't deserve better than that.

That last thing took me a while to realize: Don't ever justify, deny or apologize for what you do or like only because you feel it will make you more accepted. Contrary to what one could believe as the friendly neighborhood nerd, doing that doesn't help your relationship, or make women feel more attracted to you. Quite the opposite, showing insecurity like that while getting to know someone is a huge turn off, so don't do it.

You can be open about your nerdiness and pick up women just fine, just learn to be talkative and know how to convey the interesting aspects of your job/hobby. You wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't cool, right? So don't deny it, ever. If she has a problem with that, think about what that tells you about her personality as whole. She's not worth your time, just move on.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

This post was edited by Jaz on Oct 12, 2007.