Reading Rating Complaints

Sep 04, 2002 01:12 # 5018

Hawkeye *** posts about...

Green rating utopia

82% | 5

Do all posts have to be dead serious? I think the comic contributions to a thread are just as important as the long 3 page posts about the thread. What would drama be without comedy? They go hand-in-hand. Shakespeare, as I'm sure all of you know, used comic relief in his plays to lighten the mood of the audience. http://www.netalive.org/run/topics/5000?unreadonly=1&find=unread#unread

My point being that yellow ratings should only be given to any post that wasn't given much thought. Red ratings should only be given to posts that are offensive in nature. And I might add I put plenty of thought into that joke just as I'm putting much thought into this one as well.

Can't we just live in a world where we all give ourselves green ratings? Obviously that won't be the case, but green ratings should be done by DEFAULT! Yellow and red, in my opinion, is a demerit and doesn't deserve to be delivered to an undeserving victim simply because the rater puts yellow if something inspiring or uplifting wasn't presented before him in the post.

Can't we all just strive to be better people and give green ratings? I think we can. :)

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

This post was edited by Hawkeye on Sep 04, 2002.

Sep 04, 2002 03:03 # 5019

frank *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

83% | 2

This post was deleted by request of the author.

Sep 04, 2002 06:06 # 5023

Martin *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

97% | 3

I wonder how many people just post to get ratings, somehow I think that defeats the whole purpose right?

More than I like to believe thinking about how often this topic comes up again and again, how often people are complaining about a special rating behaviour of others. Why is it so damn important at all?? If we'd just understand its NOT an instrument to determine a ranking of good and better members, but to fight possible idiots attacking NAO! Everything beyond the first orange star doesn't matter anymore at all. Whether you have 3 red or 3 white stars doesn't make a difference in everyday use of NAO at all. So any single rating, whether its green or red, doesn't have any noticable effect for normal users (besides making some people cheer or cry obviously). Try to understand that and the whole rating business will lose its undeserved importance!

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 04, 2002 07:59 # 5026

null *** rants...

Re: Green rating utopia

93% | 2

The point is now where do you go beyond having three white stars? Why is a green post worth anything now?

You can sort NAO's user list by rank and see what position you're at. :-) I'm currently at position 2 (second to Jaz), but Martin will probably overtake me once more soon. Hell, I'll need some green ratings to stay ahead of him. And I shouldn't have given him that green rating right now. Help!!

Seriously, call me naive if you want, but I think most higher-ranked NAO people are (should be) above such ranking fights. If you write a good post, write it for the sake of writing a good post, not because of the positive votes you might get for it. After all this place is about friendly discussions, not about who's got the bigger pipe!

I wonder how many people just post to get ratings, somehow I think that defeats the whole purpose right?

Do you? Who does?

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 04, 2002 14:32 # 5031

Martin *** replies...

Beware!

95% | 2

I'm currently at position 2 (second to Jaz), but Martin will probably overtake me once more soon. Hell, I'll need some green ratings to stay ahead of him. And I shouldn't have given him that green rating right now. Help!!

LOL! You can cry for help as much as you please, there's no escape! To say it with "Bauer Joghurt": sooner or later we'll get you! HAHAHAhaha....

What d'you mean "once more"? Have I been at p2 already and lost it again? Tssss..., what a shame. Sorry, have to be off to think of some nice, important, long and impressive topics to post on NAO to collect MORE (yeah) greens and if I dont get I'll start crying at once and dont dare to rate this one yellow or I will hold my breath until you take it away again and I will never EVER talk to you again and you wont be my best friend anymore and I'll call my big brother so he will beat you up.

:-D

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 04, 2002 15:24 # 5034

null *** laughs about...

Re: Beware!

:-)

You don't have a big brother.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 04, 2002 18:48 # 5050

Martin *** isn't happy...

Re: Beware!

?% | 1

You don't have a big brother.

Shit, how did you know?
Okay, don't tell anyone, promise?

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 04, 2002 16:51 # 5038

Orchid *** can sympathize...

Re: Green rating utopia

I wonder how many people just post to get ratings (...) Who does?

Me!!! Me does!

No, not exactly. I post because I want to add or discuss something but I am always sad when my posts don't reach someone's "ear" and get rated anytime I think I wrote something good :-)

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 04, 2002 07:39 # 5025

null *** shakes his head...

Re: Green rating utopia

93% | 2

I disagree. I only give green ratings for posts that, IMHO, are well written and have cost the writer some time to think about what they're trying to say. An average post usually doesn't get rated by me at all.

A yellow vote is still half-green. It's positive, not negative. Please do keep this in mind!

Plus, imagine the chaos if everybody had their own idea of what the three ratings mean.

Obviously that won't be the case, but green ratings should be done by DEFAULT!

How would you rate an above-average post then? Double-green? It wouldn't change anything, except making things more complicated. The green rating would only be changed to what 'no rating' does today. Same stuff with new colors.
Even a post with no ratings at all will get you ranked up, so what if not all of your posts get a green rating by every user?

Why do I feel like a yellow rating is just as bad as a red one?
(frank)

Because yellow is associated with negative feelings. We've already had a discussion whether to give it a slightly yellowish green, remember? :-)
Still, a yellow rate gets you ranked up, not down. It's only the color that's confusing.

No offense meant and stuff, but why is it so hard to just follow NAO's guidelines for rating? Trust me, Jaz has put many hours into making the rating system work well for everybody. All it needs is correct input, i.e. users who stick to those very basic rules.

Just follow NAO's guidelines for rating, don't cry when you don't get a green rating for everything you write, and everything will be just fine! That's the way the site works, anything else is counterproductive. GIGO, or "Garbage In Garbage Out". The site needs correct input in order to work properly. Correct input is input which follows these simple rules. Ofcourse there's a million ways to implement different rating systems, and that's perfectly okay for me. Just let's settle on one standard we all use.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

This post was edited by null on Sep 04, 2002.

Sep 04, 2002 10:10 # 5027

andromacha *** takes out her flame thrower...

Re: Green rating utopia

92% | 3

I totally agree with you, Hawkeye. I think that the comic part is important in every thread. There was an Italian writer, Luigi Pirandello, who gave great importance to comical and humorous part in a thread. He distinguished comic and humorous though.

Here is one of his stories which can show you my point of view. There was an old woman who used to put a lot of make-up on her face. Her face looked like a carnival mask, and everyone made fun of her. That's the comical side of the thread, which turns into humorous as soon as Pirandello says that the woman used to have so much make-up to try to appear young and beautiful.

My point is that everyone here shouldn't give a yellow or a green without thinking about it. And, null, a 2 lines post doesn't always deserve a yellow. Every rater should try to imagine the point of view of the writer when he wrote that post, and only in that way he can decide whether to give a green or a yellow rating.

I'm not defending Hawkeye, because I hope you understand I am impartial. I often posted something against his ideas (especially on the US attack to Iraq). But now, I find it unfair that someone rated him yellow for his post on cookies. It was just a funny thing. At the very least, you could avoid to rate him. And I also don't think it is fair that more than one rated me yellow for the post following Hawkeye's one.

And now, since we are here, define which is the actual difference between a well written and an average written post. You'll see that everyone has his opinion about that. So, if you aren't sure about what to do, just don't rate posts.

And, null, just to point out something... Hawkeye wrote a good post here. It was a well written post. I guess it required some reasoning to him. So why did someone give him a yellow? He didn't deserve it at all.

Honestly, I am sure that I will get more than one yellow from you all for this post of mine. And you know why? Because you don't agree with my opinions. This doesn't mean that my post isn't well written though!!!

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

This post was edited by andromacha on Sep 04, 2002.

Sep 04, 2002 11:22 # 5028

null *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 1

And, null, a 2 lines post doesn't always deserve a yellow.

I've never said something like that. It wasn't me who rated him yellow, either. In fact I didn't rate any of his recent posts because I didn't have any strong feelings towards them.

Every rater should try to imagine the point of view of the writer when he wrote that post, and only in that way he can decide whether to give a green or a yellow rating.

D'accord. :-)

But now, I found it unfair that someone rated him yellow for his post on cookies.

Why is this unfair? After all it's better for him than no rating! And people are free to give whatever rating they think is appropriate, as long as it's not abusive. And I don't see any abuse here.

And, null, just to point out something... Hawkeye wrote a good post here. It was a well written post. I guess it required some reasoning to him. So why did someone give him a yellow?

Probably because somebody thought a yellow rating would be appropriate?
Look, that's the story with different opinions again. If you find that the post deserves a green rating, just rate it green! If somebody else finds that the post deserves a yellow rating, well, then he will get a yellow rating.
It's that easy. :-)

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 04, 2002 14:19 # 5030

Martin *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

90% | 3

Everytime new users join NAO and keep posting more than 5 messages you can bet it takes about 4 weeks to start this discussion again. Hawkeye and andromacha, you dont see the point in rating posts! There is absolutely no room for interpretation, there are rules as null pointed out before. Please read the old threads when Chris rejoined or when RCD joined. The rating system is basicaly there to keep possible threats out of NAO, not to boost or lower your friends and foes!

The basic misunderstanding is you feel that a yellow rating IS A PUNISHMENT!! IT IS NOT! There are 4 stages of rating: green, yellow, no rating and red. What you dont see is the fact that green AND yellow ADD to your "score", while not rating doesn't change it and a red lowers your score. So if someone decides to give a yellow, he or she thinks the post deserves a read, "good reading" as it says in the rules. I absolutely cant see anything to be sad or angry about. NOT RATING a post is much worse because it says noone was interested in what I said. If I get a yellow, it says someone enjoyed reading my post, nothing else. At least thats how the yellow is intended to be. Rating aint got nothing to do with how I like or dislike the opinion or the author. Please try and understand that...and act like that!

What d'you mean "someone didn't deserve a yellow rating"? How can you decide whether or not someone enjoyed reading a special post or not?? Its basicaly that you did not understand what it means to give a yellow rating at all. As long as you think yellow ratings are there to punish someone and green ones are there to reward the author there's a major misunderstanding. YELLOW IS BETTER THAN NOT RATING. And hoenstly, I'm tired of this permanent complaints about how bad someone was treated. We are all old enough to understand how rating is intended to work...I thought.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

This post was edited by Martin on Sep 04, 2002.

Sep 04, 2002 14:41 # 5032

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

83% | 2

So, basically green stands for well written, and yellow stands for "I enjoyed reading your post". Then I don't see the difference between rating green or yellow.

Probably when you give a yellow to someone, that means that his/her post wasn't well written, but that you liked reading it. Okay, I can agree with that, Martin. But now I need to know what "well written post" stands for. Grammatically well written? Interesting? Which are the criteria (sorry for the latinism) we should use to decide whether a post is well written or not?

I don't want to polemize on that. I just need some answer to better understand NAO and its policy. Hawkeye and I didn't complain about our yellow ratings. We are just wondering why someone gave us a yellow. Null said that he gives yellow when he doesn't think that the writer put his heart in what he wrote. Well, how can you decide that?

Frankly, since you brought up this thread I've been getting confused. And, I don't give greens or yellows to my friends or foes. If I don't like what Hawkeye or null or orchid say I don't always give them green. That's just to point out a couple of things.

Oh and it's better you don't say that a post is well written based on the English skill of the writer, or you'd deserve a couple of yellows more than what you've gotten until now. I'm not saying I am an English master, because I am not but I really hope that a well written post doesn't have to do with an excellent English grammar.

How the heck should I decide if a post is well written or not?? That's the only thing I want to know. And don't tell me to go and look at NAO's rules or whatever. Because there it's written to give green when you think that a post is well written.
So, now I am asking, "What does well written mean?"

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 04, 2002 15:07 # 5033

Martin *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 1

So, basically green stands for well written, and yellow stands for "I enjoyed reading your post". Then I don't see the difference between rating green or yellow.

There's a public search function available you might have tried:
here is the answer
read the thread, not the article.

Oh and it's better you don't say that a post is well written based on the English skill of the writer, or you'd deserve a couple of yellows more than what you've gotten until now.

Mind your words, darling, flames are also covered within the rules.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

This post was edited by Martin on Sep 04, 2002.

Sep 04, 2002 15:42 # 5035

null *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 1

Probably when you give a yellow to someone, that means that his/her post wasn't well written, but that you liked reading it.

To quote Jaz once more:

Give a positive vote...
for really well-written and thought out posts, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the author.

Give a neutral vote...
for posts that are good reading, but nothing too special.

Or, more simple, "a yellow vote is half a green one."

Null said that he gives yellow when he doesn't think that the writer put his heart in what he wrote.

Uuh, excuse me, but when did I say that? Because it's not exactly true! I give green votes when I think "bravo!" after reading the post, and yellow ones when I think "well this one's not bad." That's all, and yes it's very subjective, but after all that's what it's supposed to be. :-)

As for the grammar and stuff. Few non-English NAOees have made their Cambridge Proficiency yet (I know I haven't :-) ), and that's perfectly okay. Grammar should only be rated (down) if the writer obviously is too lazy to type correct words or uses 'l33t sp33ch.

On a side note, who thinks there should be an NAO FAQ with an exhaustive "rating" section?

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 04, 2002 17:12 # 5043

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 1

Null said that he gives yellow when he doesn't think that the writer put his heart in what he wrote.

Yes, I am sorry. I jumped to conclusions, and I apologize. I misunderstood what you wrote on green ratings and I got misleaded.

As for the grammar and stuff. Few non-English NAOees have made their Cambridge Proficiency yet (I know I haven't :-) ), and that's perfectly okay.

Excuse me, but PET really sucks. It is an idiot test which anyone can pass with merit without problems. I myself passed it with merit, getting excellent in every subject graded. I hope you were kidding when you gave importance to that silly certificate.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 04, 2002 17:35 # 5047

null *** has all the information you need...

Re: Green rating utopia

Actually I'm not talking about that PET thing (Preliminary English Test) but about the CPE, which basically means that people can't tell the difference between you and a native English speaker. I've had to pass that PET thing too as part of my school diploma, and it's very basic stuff. But that's not the point, all I'm trying to say is that you're allowed to make mistakes without getting rated down. I mean, our English is still way better than most other NAOees' German or Italian. :-)

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 04, 2002 17:59 # 5048

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

:) Yeah, we are really good at English :P

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 04, 2002 17:24 # 5046

Orchid *** can sympathize...

Re: Green rating utopia

On a side note, who thinks there should be an NAO FAQ with an exhaustive "rating" section?

Good idea! :-)

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

This post was edited by Orchid on Sep 04, 2002.

Sep 04, 2002 18:31 # 5049

ReallyCoolDude *** has a suggestion...

Re: Green rating utopia

83% | 2

On a side note, who thinks there should be an NAO FAQ with an exhaustive "rating"

Well, I had given that suggestion long back when we had the ratings discussion after I got a little irritated after my experience with the orange ratings.

But now I feel that instead of a FAQ (which most people will hardly read, and most of the times others have to just point a link to the FAQ whenever this topic comes up - which I am sure, will arise again), we can have a separate forum named "Ratings".

I believe that the amount of discussions on this topic so many times is enough qualification for it to have it's own forum. So, everytime someone doesn't understand what are the ratings for, instead of looking in the FAQ (which sounds boring too sometimes), they can look it under the Ratings forum. :)

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

Sep 04, 2002 19:08 # 5051

Martin *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

87% | 2

On a side note, who thinks there should be an NAO FAQ with an exhaustive "rating"

I agree with RCD, just a FAQ wont be enough. I mean, we saw it just now again, there are rules written down, but nobody seems to read, not even notice it. So why should just a FAQ page be more attractive to new users?

Maybe a forum is a good idea. We should ask Jaz to redirect all threads regarding rating discussions we had so far to this new forum, so everything ever said on this topic would be at the same place for the user's convenience.

And questions like this might be posted there too:
Right now that we're talking about this stuff, right now that I think everybody reread the guildline to rating, how the hell can it be that this post gets a Red? I mean, okay, its not that especially eloquent, but its not spam, nor a flame and I cant see the asshole behind the post either. The guy wrote another pretty nice post.
Somebody had to compensate his frustrations?!? Come on! What kind of kindergarten is this gonna be?

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 04, 2002 17:16 # 5044

Orchid *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

Grammatically well written? (...) Oh and it's better you don't say that a post is well written based on the English skill of the writer, or you'd deserve a couple of yellows more than what you've gotten until now.

English skills are no criterium for rating a post. I mean we can't expect our non-english people to have a good command on that language.

But of course some users doubt at the posts of new users when they are of totally bad english (like mine ;-) ) and don't have any meaning, too.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 04, 2002 17:03 # 5040

Orchid *** shakes her head...

Re: Green rating utopia

And, null, a 2 lines post doesn't always deserve a yellow.

IMHO a 2 lines post doesn't deserve any rating. You can't say it is well written when the author just spent some mere seconds to write it...

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 04, 2002 17:17 # 5045

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 2

IMHO a 2 lines post doesn't deserve any rating.

Very true, Orchid. I agree with you. Let's not rate those posts. We are free to write a joke every now and again, as Hawkeye did, but there's no need for the others to rate our posts. :)

I think we should stop arguing over such a foolish thing. It was right to discuss about it, but I guess that's enough for now.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 04, 2002 16:46 # 5037

Orchid *** shakes her head...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 1

Can't we just live in a world where we all give ourselves green ratings? Obviously that won't be the case, but green ratings should be done by DEFAULT! Yellow and red, in my opinion, is a demerit and doesn't deserve to be delivered to an undeserving victim simply because the rater puts yellow if something inspiring or uplifting wasn't presented before him in the post.

Err... if everybody would rate everybody green, why should we rate at all?

Yellow is NO demerit. Read the description. It is a good written post, too, not so good like a green but worth reading, too.
A yellow vote is better than no vote because the reader cared about your post. No vote means that the user didn't read it or doesn't think it's worth to get rated.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 04, 2002 20:12 # 5052

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

66% | 2

Think of this from another point of view. A person who is new to Netalive signs on and posts a very well-written thread. It is very deep in thought and even hits some points that otherwise would have never been thought of had he not put attention to it. It obviously deserves green ratings, right? Well someone reading it feeling he doesn't want to read the whole post, and so he reads a first few sentences.. skips to the bottom.. "not bad" he thinks to himself decides it will be rated yellow.

He clearly didn't deserve a yellow for such a well-written post, but he got one anyway. For all the research and thought he placed into that thread, he deserved nothing but a green rating. He got a yellow instead. To him, this was a DEMERIT! It was punishment for a well-written thread, because all in all anything other than a green would have been a demerit.

So if a yellow can be a demerit in this instance, then why isn't it a demerit with other well-written posts? Just because some guy doesn't put much thought into his post doesn't mean it deserves a yellow.

This post too, might get a yellow. Why? I have no idea. It is certainly well written with much thought placed into it. Anything less than a green will be a demerit (if I may be so bold).

Also, sometimes it isn't about "rank" but about respect to each other's opinions. I could care less about having 3 white stars.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Sep 04, 2002 20:23 # 5053

Orchid *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

86% | 3

Well someone reading it feeling he doesn't want to read the whole post, and so he reads a first few sentences.. skips to the bottom..

I don't think that we old NAOies rate a post when we didn't read it wholly. It would just not be fair and I think we all know that, don't you think so?

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 04, 2002 21:23 # 5054

Martin *** takes out his flame thrower...

Re: Green rating utopia

90% | 3

A person who is new to Netalive signs on and posts a very well-written thread. It is very deep in thought and even hits some points that otherwise would have never been thought of had he not put attention to it. It obviously deserves green ratings, right? Well someone reading it feeling he doesn't want to read the whole post, and so he reads a first few sentences.. skips to the bottom.. "not bad" he thinks to himself decides it will be rated yellow.

I absolutely agree with Orchid and even dare to go a step further. If you, Hawkeye, read and rate posts this way - how can you have this idea and assume anyone else does if you dont do it yourself? - its fine with me, your own decision. But its not at all okay to accuse anybody here of such a superficiality.

He clearly didn't deserve a yellow for such a well-written post, but he got one anyway. For all the research and thought he placed into that thread, he deserved nothing but a green rating.

And its also not at all okay, its - excuse the word - arrogant to think of your own posts as "well written" and "very deep in thought". Dont forget we are talking here about taste, not measurable properties. Whether or not I find a post outstanding is nothing that you can know or decide, never, not in a million years, no matter how much effort you put into writing your post. Tell you what: I'm very glad about that.

He got a yellow instead. To him, this was a DEMERIT! It was punishment for a well-written thread, because all in all anything other than a green would have been a demerit.

So not rating it at all is a even bigger demerit, right? So all other 10 regular users that didn't rate your post at all did offend you even more! Man, you must have a hell of bad time here at NAO.....

This post too, might get a yellow. Why? I have no idea. It is certainly well written with much thought placed into it. Anything less than a green will be a demerit (if I may be so bold).

I wont do you the favor to reward this "well written" post with a yellow one, cause the only way to show my refusals is to NOT vote at all.

Why are you just taking the rating stuff sooooooo serious? We are here to exchange thoughts, not to determine who's the best writer. I was in different kind of schools long enough to know that I dont need marks for what I write anymore, not at all in my spare time. Go and write your thesis, if you feel the need to be brilliant. I'm just interested in honest and unpolished opinions, not in composed essays.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

This post was edited by Martin on Sep 04, 2002.

Sep 04, 2002 21:41 # 5055

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 2

First of all, Martin, my post was in no way intended to offend you, which it seemed to do anyway.

Second, excuse me for saying my own post was well written. Maybe I'm not the best judge, but it could have just as easily been some annonymous user. The point is exactly the same.

Go and write your thesis, if you feel the need to be brilliant. I'm just interested in honest and unpolished opinions, not in composed essays.

Can you now understand the reason why I assumed people might "skip" these well-written posts. Suddenly opinions are named "composed essays," as you worded it, that apparently don't deserve any recognition beyond a yellow rating. The whole point of yellow and red ratings are to ward off jerks from this site, not to bash some well-written post, Martin. Most every post deserves a green rating here. May I remind you that I don't agree with all the opinions, but they still deserve green posts.

If the rating system isn't something you take seriously, then you probably shouldn't rank people. A requirement of all judges in serious events like figure skating are that the judges take these events equally serious. If they were flimsy and could care less how they rated, then they might as well not even have judges. You could say this isn't a serious event, but then those that don't think figure skating is a serious event aren't asked to be judges of such competitions either.

Also I might add that not ranking at all is not good or bad. It is like having 9 grades make up a semester grade in class, and the 10th one isn't factored in. It doesn't influence the average at all.

Sorry if this seems like a "composed essay" to you Martin. I'm just speaking my opinion. Rate me red if you like. Just be consistent.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Sep 04, 2002 22:19 # 5057

Martin *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

90% | 3

The whole point of yellow and red ratings are to ward off jerks from this site, not to bash some well-written post, Martin. Most every post deserves a green rating here. May I remind you that I don't agree with all the opinions, but they still deserve green posts.

<sigh> You dont want to understand, right? The Yellow is NOT to keep off the idiots, the Yellow is a above average reward! Very few of the posts deserve a green rating, the yellow is the first stage of compliment I can give for a post, green is the second, very rarely reached stage. And its (read should be) not at all about the opinions. What we've seen during the last weeks is just an inflationary, undeserved use of Greens!

If the rating system isn't something you take seriously, then you probably shouldn't rank people.

If you had read the old threads to this topic you might have found out that I always called into question this whole rating and ranking stuff. Just for exactly this reason: because the writing of posts becomes a mere race for green ratings, and because rating those posts is always again the reason for arguments just like this that endanger the feeling of community. So finally we all agreed to use it ONLY to keep the lamers out and for nothing else. Its just so sad, that we have to go through this again and again.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 04, 2002 22:43 # 5058

frank *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

90% | 4

This post was deleted by request of the author.

Sep 05, 2002 05:46 # 5061

Martin *** laughs about...

[/Frank_intellectual_mode]

I couldn't agree more!

Getting nervous to be a Daddy? Your wife in hospital already? You will make it, dont worry!

:-D

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 05, 2002 17:11 # 5067

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: [/Frank_intellectual_mode]

66% | 2

Right, well if it isn't so important, lets start giving each other red ratings for the heck of it. We aren't going to do that because we don't want red ratings back. Therefore, for you to not want that, it would imply you care about the rating system as well. Maybe not as much, granted, but it is important to all of us that we don't get red ratings if we didn't deserve it.

Some of us don't stop there.. some of us think it is important that we don't get yellow ratings if we didn't deserve it. Is it so hard to see that jump?

A perfectionist student in school studies hard for his exams only to get a C. He asks the professor why he got such a grade, and the professor says "Oh well, I never cared much about the grading system, so I put random letters on people's grades now." This analogy is an exaggeration of course, but it isn't so far from the truth. Is it wrong for me to put extra thought into my posts because I refuse to have a 'C' grade? Just understand that what isn't so important to you might be important to someone else, and respect should be given to such people as I would give respect to Martin or Frank if you were in my shoes.

Aside from that, if there weren't a ranking system, I'd still post this way I promise. My goal isn't to get greens, but I certainly wouldn't want reds just like I wouldn't want yellows so much either.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

This post was edited by Hawkeye on Sep 05, 2002.

Sep 05, 2002 17:42 # 5071

Orchid *** has an idea...

Re: [/Frank_intellectual_mode]

?% | 1

There we go. You are a prefectionist. A "petit ambitieux".
Do you belong to those students who get a 5.5 (1 bad, 6 best) and immediately run over the teacher because he may have missed one point and therefore you should get a 6 and nothing else.
I always hated this attitude.
Me getting a 3.5 with much luck and the other guy is almost crying and screaming because he has been marked sooo bad.
Well I can live with this guys but... you know.
You should learn to deal with the ratings. You shouldn't get upset when you get rated yellow or not at all. You can get very upset if someone rates you red. Everything else should be damn unimportant to us. Should...

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 05, 2002 19:10 # 5078

Martin *** replies...

Re: [/Frank_intellectual_mode]

Right, well if it isn't so important, lets start giving each other red ratings for the heck of it. We aren't going to do that because we don't want red ratings back. Therefore, for you to not want that, it would imply you care about the rating system as well. Maybe not as much, granted, but it is important to all of us that we don't get red ratings if we didn't deserve it.

Wrong! We aren't going to rate Red, because Red has a function different to the one you discribe. Its so to speak not part of the scale regular users are using. You just refuse to understand it! Why??

Some of us don't stop there.. some of us think it is important that we don't get yellow ratings if we didn't deserve it. Is it so hard to see that jump?

Yes. Since you really seem to have a problem here. How can you still speak of "deserve" in connection to your own posts? I thought we made clear that rating is a subjective question of taste that you cant predict, less than ever demand.

Just understand that what isn't so important to you might be important to someone else, and respect should be given to such people as I would give respect to Martin or Frank if you were in my shoes.

You are speaking of respect?? Have you ever thought about what it means to enter a community that exists in parts for five years and demand to change the rules just that it suits you?

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 06, 2002 14:15 # 5114

frank *** replies...

Re: [/Frank_intellectual_mode]

This post was deleted by request of the author.

Sep 06, 2002 14:09 # 5112

frank *** replies...

Re: [/Frank_intellectual_mode]

This post was deleted by request of the author.

Sep 05, 2002 17:29 # 5070

Orchid *** shakes her head...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 1

The whole point of yellow and red ratings are to ward off jerks from this site, not to bash some well-written post, Martin.

You just seem unwilling to get it.
Yellow is no penalty! Yellow rates youup!

Most every post deserves a green rating here.

Oh no, not every one. There are also small comments and stuff like that which don't deserve a green rating but rather no rating.

About the "essays": Some users here really have the time to write looong, educational, well well written posts. The others have not. It is nice to read these essays but as soon as they are too long I don't have the time to read. Throughout the day I am working hard and without Internet and in the evening I only spend an hour or so in the net when I am alone at home. At weekends I can just have a quick look at new posts, then go. And it is okay because there are more important things in life.
But I like NAO and I like some users also very much so I want to be a part of this little circle, write my opinion, discuss.
But how have the chance to mix in when I have to deal with 6 new topics, twenty new posts, all quite long, some difficult written...?
I appreciate that people here take their time to think about there posts and search for good words, add links, blah blah. But I prefer short, precise posts without big expositions and statements.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 05, 2002 17:57 # 5072

Hawkeye *** replies...

Hmm

Being a perfectionist has never let me down. I'm sorry if you don't like that attitude, but it is just the way I am. It doesn't mean I do everything to be the best, but it just means I can't settle for less. And so you can understand how I can be upset when I put so much thought into a post and get a yellow. It wasn't that I was expecting a green, but for the effort I put into it...

Am I a loner on this one?

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Sep 05, 2002 18:45 # 5073

null *** throws in his two cents...

Re: Hmm

97% | 3

If your self-esteem needs green votings, or your ego can't accept anything below the best, I think you have a serious problem.
You know, people can like you even when you're getting yellow (or no) ratings. Nobody is perfect, and always expecting to be considered perfect is bound to lead to disappointment. If you want to be a perfectionist that's perfectly okay with me, but how can you expect us to blindly support you on this against our own beliefs?
Why don't you just try to say "hey, I've got a yellow rating, that's half a green one!" instead of "f*ck, I'd really have deserved a green one for this." Everybody here respects your opinion, and you as a person, but you've gotta do us the same favour... which may mean that you've got to accept one's decision to give you a yellow rating. You want to be the best? Write posts that everybody likes! Sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't. That's how it is for pretty anybody here. But don't try to force positive ratings. It just won't work. And even if it worked, it would be nothing but self-deception.

Just my .02.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 05, 2002 19:03 # 5077

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Hmm

?% | 1

There's no need to snap at him like that, null. He just expressed his opinion, and I think he is right. I think that anyone at our age is able to esteem his/herself for what he thinks/says and so forth.

Just like when I was at school and I had my Italian compositions. Well, I generally got 8 (which is a very good grade, 9 is the best one), and I got used to that. One day my teacher didn't agree with what I wrote on one of my compositions, and gave me six. It was so unfair. I knew I didn't deserve that grade, and my parents agreed with me because that was a well written composition, just like my previous ones.

Well, this is the same thing for yellow ratings I think. Everyone can judge if he/she wrote a good post, no matter what the others think about it. So, in my opinion, when someone puts his heart in what he writes it is right that he expects to be given good ratings or grades or whatever he deserves.
Obviously, it is hard to realize when someone actually put his heart in his thread, but I guess that here on NAO almost everyone puts his heart in what he writes. It's tangible in most of the posts written by you all.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 05, 2002 19:11 # 5079

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Hmm

If your self-esteem needs green votings, or your ego can't accept anything below the best, I think you have a serious problem.

I didn't say I couldn't handle them, Null. I mean geez, if I couldn't handle them, I wouldn't be posting here right now because I have had more than my fair share of yellow ratings.

I shoot for the best. You may not do that, and that isn't necessarily wrong. In an easy class, I go for an A. In a hard class, I go for an A. If I allowed myself anything less, than my grades would suffer as a result. This is how I operate. I understand that I'm going to get less than green posts, that isn't what I'm saying. I'm just saying that to me, everyone makes great posts. They all have a reaction out of me, and they all do what is defined to be a "green rating." You obviously feel different, but to me, there is no point in making the great, mediocre instead.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Sep 05, 2002 19:55 # 5086

null *** replies...

Re: Hmm

85% | 2

I didn't say I couldn't handle them, Null.

Obviously you can't. This community has existed for quite some time now, and altho not every user liked the idea of ratings when they were introduced, everybody has got used to them. It's only you who believes to "deserve" something better.

In an easy class, I go for an A. In a hard class, I go for an A.

...and if you get a B, you get on the teachers' nerves until they change the rules so you get an A?

If you want more green ratings, write more posts which people (besides you) find "excellent". It's that easy. Go ahead.

Note to Jaz, suggestion for a new post type: "sick and tired of something".

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 05, 2002 19:25 # 5082

null *** replies...

Re: Hmm

90% | 3

Don't be upset, I don't mean to insult anybody, but I'm so sick of that "yellow is bad" crap. I know it's hard when you expect a good rating and you don't get it, but hey! you can't expect anybody to find everything you write absolutely outstanding! That's all I want to say. People have opinions of their own (which is a good thing), and you have to respect their opinions, even if they differ from yours. If everybody was obliged to vote anything green, what would the rating system be good for?

Look at it mathematically: an average post gets no rating, a good post gets a yellow one, and a very good post gets a green one.
You say that most posts here are good, and that most people put quite some effort into them. I agree with you on that.
This, fortunately high, niveau is thus an average post. Probably not for the 'net in general (you know what kind of crap is floatign around), but for this specific place, netalive.org.
So, on this site, an average post is quite good.
And an average post gets no rating.
So in order to be rated yellow or even green, your post has to be better that "quite good". "Average" doesn't mean "just bearable", at least not here. "Average" means "good". So you could also say, if you want, that a yellow point is for "very good", and a green one for "excellent".
If you always try to write "excellent" posts, that's great! Don't stop. But don't make the mistake and expect that everybody shares your opinion on this. And expect to sometimes fail to write an "excellent" post. C'est la vie!

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 05, 2002 19:33 # 5084

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Hmm

?% | 2

So we're speaking French here, huh? Ca va bien, monsieur. Well, getting back to English... Can we try to stop arguing over this thing?

Nothing good will come from this discussion, and in the end everyone will stick to his own ideas, so I don't see the point with discussing it any longer.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 06, 2002 06:41 # 5101

andromacha *** takes out her flame thrower...

Congrats...

?% | 1

What really makes me sad and mad and so forth is that no one of you made an effort to understand Hawkeye's point of view. You all decided that NAO is fine this way (and I may or may not agree with you, but I don't really care), and so he was automatically wrong. There was no thing he could say or do, he was wrong.

The only thing you could do was to insult him, yelling at him because he always wants the best for himself. What's wrong with that? He was just trying to make you see his point of view, and you could have politely explained things (as null did with me), instead of saying to read NAO's instructions and so forth.

Martin, you have been really impolite with him. Basically you said that he is dumb (and you did that more than once), because he couldn't understand your point of view. You said to read NAO's guideline... yeah... and what if he wasn't satisfied by that? What if he needed more or different or clearer answers? You just accused him not to read things or not to understand things. I think that the first one who doesn't understand things here is you. No one of you made a little effort to understand where Hawkeye and I were coming from. Why? Just because we are kinda new on NAO, so our opinion doesn't matter. You've been here for more time, so you know your stuff right? You say things and expect the others to agree with you...

Well, I just want to let you know what you just did with your idiot behavior... Hawkeye decided not to post anymore here. At least for some days. I partially agree with him, and I can understand him. He was under attack wherever he turned his head. You have talked so much about respect... ah-hah nice words.. but still just words. I think you should learn what respect is. I'm talking most of all to you, Martin. You are the one who treated him the worst, and you don't even know what respect means. I suggest you to pick a vocabulary, and look up for that word. Afterwards, I suggest you to follow what the vocabulary says.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 06, 2002 08:18 # 5102

null *** throws in his two cents...

Re: Congrats... (long)

95% | 2

Sorry, but this is absolutely not true.

How many times have we tried to explain things to him? I don't know exactly, but it seems like a lot of times to me.
If you feel some people were insulting to him, well, that might be because people wanted to show how pissed off they are. And, honestly, I can understand them. Because he pissed me off as well.
Lend me your ear (or eyes) and I'll try to explain why.

He was just trying to make you see his point of view, and you could have politely explained things

We've tried, we really did! OTOH I didn't feel like he tried to understand us at all.
Example: He still considers yellow ratings a punishment. He stubbornly insists on this, altho several people have explained to him several times why this isn't so! Please try to understand that this is a very frustrating experience. It's as if he didn't even read any of our posts, as if there was no need to. This may (and probably has been) be interpreted as pure arrogance!
If he feels that yellow is a bad color, well, so be it. But this is a community with clear (albeit few) rules. One rule is, "a yellow rating is good and nothing to complain about." Another one is, "People are free to express their opinion, as long as they are doing it in a polite manner." If I'm not allowed to rate Hawkeye's posts yellow (altho in my opinion it's the appropriate thing to do) because his ego can't handle anything below green, I don't really feel that he respects my opinion! What about that? Is it our fault when our actual opinion differs from what he's expecting (=the best)? Come on, this is kindergarten stuff!

and you could have politely explained things (as null did with me)

There's a reason why I've been nice to you... I feel that when I'm talking to you you're actually listening to me and trying to understand me. I appreciate that. I wish I could tell the same things about Hawkeye.

Martin, you have been really impolite with him. Basically you said that he is dumb (and you did that more than once), because he couldn't understand your point of view. You said to read NAO's guideline... yeah... and what if he wasn't satisfied by that?

Then he could have read at least one of the many posts of people who tried to explain the situation in their own words, just for him.

He was under attack wherever he turned his head.

...whenever he mentioned that stupid rating thing again! What other posts was he ever attacked for?
The correct answer is, none. He even earned some green and yellow points (<-- note, yellow points are good), and people showed an interest in his posts, replied and sometimes even agreed with him, but even if they did not, everybody treated him with respect. Anybody claiming something else needs to prove their claim.

You have talked so much about respect... ah-hah nice words.. but still just words. I think you should learn what respect is. I'm talking most of all to you, Martin.

I absolutely support Martin on everything he's written on that topic.
I actually consider us NAOees rather nice guys. I bet you've never seen us trying to freeze out any new user. If we were so nasty, nobody would have talked to you (<--that means you and Hawkeye), and you sure as hell wouldn't have got two white stars.
I bet before this rating war you haven't seen many flamewars or insulting posts on NAO, have you?

But talking about respect... what is it that Hawkeye actually wants? I understand he's a perfectionist and reaches for the best, which is perfectly okay. Nobody is attacking him for that.
I also understand he's trying to change NAO's rating system just so he can get more green points to satisfy his A-grade hunger.
Sorry, but...
1. this is self-betraying: what positive aspect does a green vote have when people are forced to rate you green,
2. how can he demand of us to change this well-working community according to his, and only his wishes? What exactly has this to do with respect? In my eyes it's utter arrogance!

Let me make up another one of my beloved examples: Your band produces 10 songs. 1 song gets on top of the charts, the other 9 don't. Do you start insulting your fans or music company, or try to change the Top10 rules so that all of your 10 songs can be #1 at once?

NAO has some rules on ratings and rankings. These rules need to be followed not because we like to make rules, but for the system to work. If you want to be #1, well go for it - everybody has this chance - but you've gotta prove yourself first. That's how it works, and I think it's a good system.
Currently Martin is the user with the highest rank. That's because he's written many good and excellent posts (<--according to the public opinion). You could say that he's worked hard for this position.
I'm currently 2 ranks below Martin. If I happen to write some excellent posts in the near future (and he doesn't), I will eventually rank up and be the new #2 or even #1. But I've gotta work for it.

Suggestion to Hawkeye: Look up "modesty" in a dictionary. Afterwards, I suggest you to follow what the vocabulary says.
If you're done with that, check out what Pierre Janet (the French psychologist) means by "manie de l'amour". Try to apply it to you, be surprised(?) that it fits, and start working on it. You could always be a valuable (and welcome) member of this community if you just could deal with below-the-best ratings! Currently you're destroying this chance only because you can't handle to be #2!
I understand that some people are tempted to rate him red (instead of green) because they're so sick of his stubbornness, and of what might be interpreted as arrogance. Is this worth it to him? Does he even intend to ever take part in another NAO discussion again?

If you, Hawkeye, want to be #1, go for it. Nobody has a problem with that. Write good posts. People will rate your posts green (which ranks you up), yellow (which ranks you up a bit less, but still ranks you up) or not at all (which still ranks you up a little bit, because every not-red-rated post gets you a few points). How high you will eventually rank depends solely on how much people like what you write. It's the same thing for all of us. Just accept that the public opinion may differ from what you expect, which seems to me like a very easy and reasonable rule.

Personal note to andromacha: It's no fun for me to write this post, especially as I like you very much, and at least partially understand how you must feel about this. But I'm just telling the truth. I honestly believe that Hawkeye's only chance here is to let this topic rest and accept things as they are. Please try to explain this to him. I don't know if he'd listen to me, or anybody else besides you.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

This post was edited by null on Sep 06, 2002.

Sep 06, 2002 15:51 # 5121

Orchid *** replies...

Re: Congrats... (long)

There are people listening to you besides Andromacha

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 06, 2002 16:36 # 5127

Martin *** replies...

Re: Congrats... (long)

There are people listening to you besides Andromacha

Come on, Orchid, please dont make it a personal problem between you and null in addition, no need to be jelous! The situation is hard enough for everyone since I feel its the first real NAO crisis. Lets all calm down and dont open up new battlefields.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 07, 2002 13:13 # 5147

null *** replies...

Re: Congrats... (long)

Actually I meant to say: "I don't know if he'd listen to me, or to anybody else besides you." I know that anybody eagerly absorbs anything I write ;-)

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 06, 2002 08:30 # 5103

Martin *** replies...

Re: Congrats...

97% | 3

What really makes me sad and mad and so forth is that no one of you made an effort to understand Hawkeye's point of view. You all decided that NAO is fine this way (and I may or may not agree with you, but I don't really care), and so he was automatically wrong. There was no thing he could say or do, he was wrong.

Dear, andromacha, I'm sorry to say, its exactly the other way round! Go back and count the tries while everybody quietly tried to explain whats going on, that we had those discussions before and so on. Of course there is noone here who does NOT see his point of view, but seeing a point and wanting it to change are two different things. And if you keep telling, explaining the same thing 5 times but cannot see the slightest reaction, but only hear the same stubborn thoughts, sorry, thats when I'm getting angry, true!

If I'm the only who wants to cross the street while the lights are red and stand still while its green, I cannot seriously expect the world to change. So either I have to live with it and get hit by cars permanently or try to change my behavior, cause the world wont change the rules for me, definitley not.

Fact is that I didn't see Hawkeye moving his position, not even in his last post, not even think about it, and what is the worst in my eyes he was not even *interested* to be informed how its meant to be. That's what I call ignorance!

The only thing you could do was to insult him, yelling at him because he always wants the best for himself. What's wrong with that?

Again I'm sorry, this is also not true. He wants to be *acknowleged* as the best, he wants to hear it everyday a dozend times. For himself its not important if he really is, but only that other people THINK he is, and that's an important difference. I guess, and thats a blind shot, it was not the first time that he had a problem with his behavior in a community. I'd say he has a problem there, but we, I am not his psychatrist, I'm just a human being that reacts pretty allergic to those kind of characters, cause there were way too much crossing my life before!
If he really only wanted the best for himself, he'd be quietly enjoying his success and not making such a fuzz about it. Really, I'm absolutely not interested at all if he was the best in which class at school, I did not ask for this piece of information, but the way he baths in his success really makes me sick.

He was just trying to make you see his point of view, and you could have politely explained things (as null did with me), instead of saying to read NAO's instructions and so forth.

You cannot say that we didn't try, go back and read it again!

Martin, you have been really impolite with him. Basically you said that he is dumb (and you did that more than once),

And, yes, I'd repeat every word as I said it in connection to this topic and this discussion! There's nothing I feel I have to be sorry for.

because he couldn't understand your point of view. You said to read NAO's guideline... yeah... and what if he wasn't satisfied by that? What if he needed more or different or clearer answers?

So it would have been his turn to ask more specific questions, but to repeat the same old wrong statements again and again.

You just accused him not to read things or not to understand things.

And that's still my impression.

I think that the first one who doesn't understand things here is you.

Maybe. *I* am not the one to say to be infallible. But I got an impression, I got a feeling of whats going on, and most times I can rely on my feelings, not always, but most times. And I trust my feelings.

No one of you made a little effort to understand where Hawkeye and I were coming from. Why? Just because we are kinda new on NAO, so our opinion doesn't matter. You've been here for more time, so you know your stuff right? You say things and expect the others to agree with you...

You are not the first new users to NAO. Funny, all others made it somehow. D'you think they're all too weak to stand against the power and might of NAO reguar user?
We were ready and willing to discuss this topic, again, for the 432th time, and it all started quite and calm.
No I'm sick to go through this once again.

Well, I just want to let you know what you just did with your idiot behavior... Hawkeye decided not to post anymore here. At least for some days.

Cant say its makin me sad.

<just for the record: when starts a post to be a flame, when starts a thread to be a flame war? I'm still thinking about whether or not this is the first deserved Red>

I partially agree with him, and I can understand him. He was under attack wherever he turned his head. You have talked so much about respect... ah-hah nice words.. but still just words. I think you should learn what respect is. I'm talking most of all to you, Martin. You are the one who treated him the worst, and you don't even know what respect means. I suggest you to pick a vocabulary, and look up for that word. Afterwards, I suggest you to follow what the vocabulary says.

Wuuuhuuuu, all guns blazing! Its gonna get dirty, right? I must say you dont really know me when I put aside my dictionary. I understand you're sad about what happened to your loved one, but pretending to be the insulted princess doesn't quite fit you. Come on, you can do better! Needs a little more to get me goin...

<Sorry, null, if I'm repeating, I wrote this one offline, and just saw yours now, !applause for it!>

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 06, 2002 08:56 # 5105

null *** throws in his two cents...

Re: Congrats...

<Sorry, null, if I'm repeating, I wrote this one offline, and just saw yours now, !applause for it!>

Same to you! :-) How come you always write the stuff I forgot?

PS, you forgot to rate my post green. :-P

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 06, 2002 10:11 # 5107

Martin *** replies...

Re: Congrats...

?% | 3

PS, you forgot to rate my post green.

Ooops, yes, right. And since I only give Greens to my best friends...here it comes! ;-)

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 06, 2002 18:02 # 5133

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Congrats...

*EDIT*

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

This post was edited by Hawkeye on Sep 06, 2002.

Sep 06, 2002 15:48 # 5120

Orchid *** shakes her head...

Re: Congrats...

?% | 1

We didn't insult Hawkeye.
And he is wrong.
It's ok to wanna be the best but it is not okay to force us believing the same and rate all his posts green.
Everybody has a different opinion.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 06, 2002 15:59 # 5122

Orchid *** has all the information you need...

Re: Congrats...

?% | 1

Try to look at it from our side.
We always got along wit each other very well, also with Hawkeye.
But one fine day he came and complained about our perfectly well functioning rating system.
We felt a bit offended and tried to explain. OK...
But he didn't believe us and went on lamenting. We all tried to explain it a second time with a maybe longer and detailled post.
And he still wasn't satisfied though we invested more time then usually into this discussion.

How shall we feel? Not offended? Nothing went wrong till now. Everybody was happy with the system because we once also had (a little bit shorter and not so heaty) discussion about it.
Then it was OK... Until now. One user isn't happy. And why???

I wonder what Jaz's going to say after his return...

Hawkeye, take the weekend, take your time to reread everythin and call dawn a bit. Maybe you suddenly get something... ;-)

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

This post was edited by Orchid on Sep 06, 2002.

Sep 06, 2002 18:18 # 5136

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Congrats...

I just think it is wrong they way you are acting towards me, guys. I did nothing to deserve those reds, and you know that. I know that either, so... do you really think you can offend me? No, you'll have to do more to offend me. I don't think I've cried enough... Ask Martin. He can surely help you. He seems so good at treating me bad, especially when i don't deserve it.

I was just pointing out my opinions, and no one should have felt free of giving me a red for that. I doubt that my posts can be considered spamming stuff.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

This post was edited by andromacha on Sep 06, 2002.

Sep 05, 2002 21:09 # 5090

Orchid *** replies...

Re: Hmm

95% | 2

It's about subjectivity here.
We all know this teacher unfair-situation very well I think.
Who wasn't once or more often disappointed to get a non expected low mark for a essay or exam in which he or she laid a very big effort.
Of course the parents also say: "You'd deserve a better mark."
But parents don't know anything about the system unless they're teachers themselves. Mine aren't.
Have you talked to the teacher? We easily come to judge the teacher as one who gives marks personally. There are such teachers. But they are easily to identify.
Your teacher wasn't one of those, right?
Most of the students are just feeling hurted and don't talk to the teacher but if they do, he'll sure explain why he gave a worse mark then expected.

Hawkeye can spend a lot of time writing a post, too and some may really rate it green because they see the work in it and so on.
Some may not. Where would we get to if we would all have the same opinion of a post?

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 06, 2002 06:26 # 5100

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Hmm

Well, my mom has been a chemistry teacher for a while, Orchid. And I will never forget when my actual chemistry teacher gave me B, because was convinced that sulphuric acid was H2SO3 and not H2SO4.

So my mom can understand pretty well what I was saying, and if you are saying that parents usually tell their sons they'd deserve a better grade just to say it, but without really mean it... well you are completely wrong!

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 06, 2002 09:42 # 5106

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Hmm

Fine. This is what you all think. Alright, I don't think I have enough time to lose my time on NAO anymore.
Martin, what do you know about me? Nothing, nothing at all, but still you offended and insulted me!

So, au revoir!

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 06, 2002 12:28 # 5108

Martin *** replies...

Re: Hmm

Martin, what do you know about me? Nothing, nothing at all, but still you offended and insulted me!

So, au revoir!

Yes, you are right, I know nothing about you. But how can I know anything more if you're running away? You should gimme the chance to learn something about you. Okay, I'm you're enemy, I am the one to blame, I keep hurting your feelings, I want you to leave NAO, I'm permanently insulting and offending you, okay, if it makes you feel better to believe this. I got no problem with it, cause I *know* you are wrong. You know, I just read the whole thread from the very first post to this your last again and I honestly cannot find a single sentence that might have offended you (maybe that "princess" thingie?). You are fighting like a little lioness for...uhm...yes, for what are you fighting at all? But I found several namecalling places that could have insulted me, which they didn't, cause I know you didn't mean to get as personal as it sounds. I wonder what I did to you that you just picked out me as your outspoken enemy, though everybody else said the same. And let me tell you one more thing: my patience is not endless, you better stop that now or I will have you for breakfast.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 06, 2002 12:43 # 5109

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Hmm

My patience isn't endless either! And, yes I am fighting like a little lioness for the things I consider right. You all have started this war against Hawkeye in reply to one of his posts. He didn't have clear the yellow rating thing, but you didn't use the right words to explain the whole stuff to him

I know Hawkeye better than you all, and surely better than what you would get to know him in a million years. If you keep using that approach to explain him things you'll get nowhere.

Besides, he is right. If you have an average of 80% and someone rates you yellow, then your average decreases. I don't see anything wrong with what he said. It is mere mathematics... (80+60)/2

And, do you want to have me for breakfast? Be careful to what you say, Martin. You don't know me and you're gonna have a bad stomachache if you try to eat me. Oh but maybe I should be scared about your words... Yeah I am trembling... Oh Martin, please don't eat me don't eat me.. I will be a good girl!

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

This post was edited by andromacha on Sep 06, 2002.

Sep 06, 2002 14:19 # 5116

null *** isn't happy...

Re: Hmm

93% | 2

Please please please, don't start another fscking flamewar to determine who's right about the first one!

Look, without wanting to insult anybody, just telling the facts:

More like (100+60+60)/3=73, because 80% means you've got at least two ratings, a yellow one (60%) and a green one (100%). But let's forget about the details. :-)

Check this out tho:

A green rating = your overall score score is increased by 1 to 2.5 (depending on the rater's ranking)
A yellow rating - your oberall score is increased by 0.5 to 1.25.

Since Hawkeye so desperately wants to be the best, he should be happy even about the yellow ratings.

Nobody says that your math is wrong. Just try to see the whole picture.

And please answer me these - still unanswered - questions:

What is the rating system good for if you're automatically rated green for everything you write (as Hawkeye proposed in one of his first posts)?

The rating system works pretty good, and everybody accepts it the way it is, except for Hawkeye. We see his point, but how can he demand that we change the whole system just because he doesn't like it?

As for the offending part: We've explained to him a gazillion times how the rating system works, and why a yellow rating still is half a green one. Why is he still telling us that a yellow vote is bad (evil),, and more importantly, how can he blame us for not giving him the ratings he thinks he deserves, and at the same time rant about respecting other people's opinions? Do I disrespect his opinion just because I refuse to change mine according to his expectations?

Please, somebody answer these questions (really!, or let the topic rest. I can't tell you how sick it makes me to see the same bullsh*t over and over again. It's too late for Hawkeye to earn many green votes anyway.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 06, 2002 14:24 # 5117

frank *** replies...

Re: Hmm

?% | 1

This post was deleted by request of the author.

Sep 06, 2002 15:46 # 5119

Orchid *** shakes her head...

Re: Hmm

You all have started this war against Hawkeye in reply to one of his posts.

Don't call this war. This is just a hot discussion.
We all try to convince Hawkeye of our good, little rating system. That's all...

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 06, 2002 18:03 # 5134

Hawkeye *** takes out his flame thrower...

Re: Hmm

51% | 4

This is getting WAY out of hand here! Stop attacking each other please. Please be the adults in this conversation and stop pointing fingers.

Andromacha did NOT deserve those reds, and some of you owe her a sincere apology. In no way did she write anything that was worthy of being bashed to death. Yes, she has a difference of opinion, but that does not excuse any of your actions here. If you want to express a point by giving red ratings, don't take it out on her. I started this thread anyway. That is extremely irresponsible, and you children.... yes children, should grow up.

Only in Netalive can I count on being insulted for displaying my opinions in a timely manner. For those that respect each other's opinions, I'm sorry for you to have to read this, but for those of you that have no business delivering reds to "wrong" opinions and greens to "right" opinions should seriously consider some mental evaluation. Have a little decency, my God. I'm not coming back to Netalive until I see some serious behavior adjustment.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

This post was edited by Hawkeye on Sep 06, 2002.

Sep 07, 2002 13:15 # 5148

null *** takes out his flame thrower...

Re: Hmm

I'm not coming back to Netalive until I see some serious behavior adjustment.

Is this a promise we can rely on? Because if you're absolutely unable to settle with less than the best, this is definitely the wrong place for you. Better invest your time into getting more A grades then.

BTW, you still haven't replied to this, Mr. Responsible.

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

Sep 07, 2002 15:30 # 5155

Martin *** replies...

Re: Hmm

This is getting WAY out of hand here! Stop attacking each other please. Please be the adults in this conversation and stop pointing fingers.

I wish you were listening to yourself.

Andromacha did NOT deserve those reds,

True. Not both.
In fact she was lucky not to get it earlier and many more this morning for her outspoken flame.

and some of you owe her a sincere apology.

Some say it this way, some say it different.

In no way did she write anything that was worthy of being bashed to death.

Wrong. Agressive insulting flames ARE covered by the rules. Many people decided against voting Red for the sake of peace, but obviously not all.

and you children.... yes children, should grow up.

Okay, I will tell you when I'm finished, but dont wait for it, it might take a little time, hopefully.

Only in Netalive can I count on being insulted for displaying my opinions in a timely manner.

Sorry you feel like that, honestly! Cause I know how it feels, too. Somehow like bitten by a lion....

For those that respect each other's opinions, I'm sorry for you to have to read this, but for those of you that have no business delivering reds to "wrong" opinions and greens to "right" opinions should seriously consider some mental evaluation.

Dont you find it a bit too hard to talk about your good girl this way? She started this Red-shit just in case you didn't notice or dont *want* to notice! You were right to delete your previous post after writing, the place it appeared was tactically not very clever, right under *her* mental derailment.

Have a little decency, my God. I'm not coming back to Netalive until I see some serious behavior adjustment.

Amen. Then I will give a promise, too: I wont adjust anything about my behavior!

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 06, 2002 16:04 # 5124

Orchid *** shakes her head...

Re: Hmm

Am I completely wrong?
I don't think so.
My mom always says I am good, I am this,... because she doesn't know it better.
Your mother is a chemistry teacher and understands your problems in chemistry. But does she also know how exactly your exams have to be written in the other subjects?
And have you ever saw a mother saying to her child: "God, this is so bad, how stupid are you?"

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

Sep 06, 2002 14:17 # 5115

frank *** replies...

Re: Hmm

This post was deleted by request of the author.

Sep 07, 2002 16:19 # 5156

frank *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 1

This post was deleted by request of the author.

Sep 07, 2002 16:54 # 5157

MrCrash *** throws in his two cents...

Re: Green rating utopia

92% | 2

Uhm...
I didn't contribute anything to this topic yet, but I feel a strong urge to throw in my 2 cents and agree with Frank...
Let's just sit back, take a deep breath and have a more distant look at the whole thing.

Fact: Hawkeye thinks he deserves more/only green ratings for his posts. This is his opinion which can't be proved right or wrong. It just is.

Fact: Only few (if anyone except Andromacha) are willing to do so, because of well (overnovernovernover) explained reasons regarding the very purpose of the NAO-rating system and some personal viewpoints 'n' stuff.

Fact: Appearantly nothing will change about this in the next time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess Hawkeye an NAO just don't fit together. It might be that easy. And I bet you didn't need me to figure this out... ;)

Well, just my 2 cents...

That makes me a sa-a-a-a-a-ad Panda...

Sep 08, 2002 20:32 # 5175

Hawkeye *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

?% | 2

Ok, I don't think you quite understand here. If my purpose of this was to get green ratings, I would have stopped posting here a long time ago. This isn't about that. I'm sorry if you think I deserve a red just because I want a green.

This is getting WAY out of hand here! Stop attacking each other please. Please be the adults in this conversation and stop pointing fingers.

Who said that? I said that, and I meant it! My attempt to stop this stupid stupid behavior has been in vain. Some of you need to gain a little perspective. I'm trying to give my opinion and I'm getting pushed out of Netalive for it (andromacha as well). Seriously, if this is what netalife is about, I would have NEVER joined. Martin, you made andromacha cry. Yes, CRY for heaven's sake. This goes way beyond "ratings" now. In your eyes, I seemed to be a perfectly acceptable netalive contributer until.. *gasp* I had an opinion that differed from yours! Deny this all you want, but it is plain to see from any outsider.

When I leave, it is easy to say "well he didn't belong here anyway," but I ask of you,... No, I demand of you to see what you are doing. My only crime is having an opinion different than yours. So what is netalive becoming if they force out anyone that disagrees with their own opinion? Close-minded... I hope all of you one day break free from this terrible disease that seems to plague all of you.

From what I hear, basically the only way I can make you accept me again is to admit you are right, and NOT try to write green posts anymore. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to change my beliefs as a human being to appease you, and neither is andromacha. Sorry I wasted your time trying to convince you of an outside opinion. I truly wish the best for all of you.

Neil

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

This post was edited by Hawkeye on Sep 08, 2002.

Sep 08, 2002 20:37 # 5176

andromacha *** replies...

Re: Green rating utopia

Bravo!!!! We don't need to be insulted and offended all the time because our opinions differ from theirs. There's no way we can work things out, and probably no one on Nao wants to work things out. The truth is that no one cares about our opinion, so posting here doesn't make sense anymore.

I wish the best to everyone (in hope that you get less narrow-minded than what you are now).
Elena.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

This post was edited by andromacha on Sep 08, 2002.

Sep 09, 2002 01:42 # 5181

Ettena *** isn't happy...

SAD :(

95% | 4

I really find it sad that a discussion like this could make two persons leave a community.

I - being quite a computer newbie I have to admit, have only known those kinds of discussions that lead to a split-up from these ugly teenie-girl fights. Though I've never been in one myself, I have two girl friends who went through such a fight and split up with their best-best friend forever just because of their mutual stubborness about a silly nothing.

Back then, I thought this could only happen to hormone-driven, female teenagers who couldn't but look through their tiny, narrow eye-glasses.

Today I learned different. An adult-community seems to have split up.

Back then, I was too concerned about my own teenage problems to try to interfere or do anything about it.

Today I'm no teenager anymore and that's why I want to tell you, Andromacha and Hawkeye, what I should have told my friends back then: that for me it is a loss without you on NAO. I don't care about what your discussion was about and who is right or wrong. I just regret your absence and I will miss your posts. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does.

Of course you are free to do whatever you like, I just wanted to let you know that there is someone who will miss you.

And that I would welcome you back immediately.

Tschüss, alder Babbsack! Hier parkste richtig.

Sep 09, 2002 12:50 # 5192

gentledeepwaters *** replies...

Re: SAD :(

60% | 3

Ettena.......you have my utmost respect and liking.....and I agree after catching up on all this.........uh......tempest in a teapot.

Folks....we are in an unusual position..

We are a scattered family who has CHOSEN to be one.....and we are around a huge kitchen table......bringing our different talents, ideas, and baggage from our pasts, different tools of dealing with stuff to the table...

Now I dearly wanna discuss Gayness.........dammit!!!!!!!

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Sep 09, 2002 10:22 # 5186

Martin *** is unsure about...

Re: Green rating utopia

93% | 2

I'm trying to give my opinion and I'm getting pushed out of Netalive for it (andromacha as well). Seriously, if this is what netalife is about, I would have NEVER joined.

Noone is pushing you out. There are other tools to do that if we'd seriously wanted it to do and you would not be able to login at all if we had that in mind. The fact that you CAN keep coming back again and again should be indication enough that you are not driven out. Dont seek the cause for the current situation with anybody else but yourself. It was you who said to leave NAO, not us who forbid your return! And still its your very own decision. When I said its not making me sad if you leave, that doesnt mean I'm pushing you out. Dont take yourself too important, whether you are here to post or not really doesn't change my day too much, not at all to be honest.

Martin, you made andromacha cry. Yes, CRY for heaven's sake.

And again.
I'm asking this now for the third time: what did I do that you keep calling me your enemy?
If you dont answer that question, Andromacha, I'm not able to see any fault and thus not able to correct anything I might have done wrong. But just repeating the same old wrong statement doesn't make it right, but is just makin me more and more angry. I think I have been pretty relaxed so far, I've not even started to insult anyone, and I dont intend to. But if you force me by permanent slaps in the face, I have to react. You shouldn't open the box, if you cant handle what's coming out!

I seemed to be a perfectly acceptable netalive contributer until.. *gasp* I had an opinion that differed from yours! Deny this all you want, but it is plain to see from any outsider.

And you still are, noone said anything different. YOU announced to leave without anyone ever asking you to. If everyone ever left that had a different opinion, Jaz would propably be on his own here, maybe Ettena would join him, but thats about it. I had way harder arguments than this with Frank for example over the years. But WE were able to calm down at the right moment and understood we dont mean to hurt each other, while you and your good girl turned over to personal attacks. What d'you expect? To crown you King just because you are able to write more than 10 sentences in a row?

When I leave, it is easy to say "well he didn't belong here anyway," but I ask of you,... No, I demand of you to see what you are doing. My only crime is having an opinion different than yours. So what is netalive becoming if they force out anyone that disagrees with their own opinion?

There is noone right from the start who "does not belong here". The strength of a community like this is its diversity, the difference in opinions. If we always agree to oneanother there is no discussion arising and netalive would be pretty much dead.
And to say it loud and clear once again: WE are doing nothing with you! YOU decided to leave.
Your "crime" is not to have a different opinion, but to not accept that you cannot change anything about the common view of things! I said it at least two times that its absolutely okay with me you see it your way, but that is not enough for you. Why? What are you trying to achieve? The discussion might have ended then. But you repeated it again and again, while your good girl started shooting in the backs. And still noone asked you to leave.
What really makes me think is that it needs someone who didn't follow the discussion to say "No, dont leave, I'll be missing you". Although you announced it now for the third time and keep coming back still, noone asked you before, funny, isn't it?
Is this a great conspiracy against Hawkeye and Andromacha? Did all NAO users, but the ones who were on vacation, agree to push you out? Did we secretly arrange your firing? Did I, Martin, persuade or bribe everybody else to hate you? Did I, Martin, grind out an oath on you and got all other users under my spell as well? AM I, MARTIN, THE TRUE EVIL?
Dont you see the rediculousness of this whole escalation?

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 09, 2002 11:37 # 5187

andromacha *** replies...

To Martin

93% | 2

Martin, you made andromacha cry. Yes, CRY for heaven's sake.

I think you know what you said that hurt me. If not, try to think about all the ways you called me. Read your posts again if you don't remember.

And are you still planning to have me for breakfast? I did nothing to you, but you simply attacked me that way. I did nothing to deserve it if not supporting my boyfriend.

And when I tried to make you see his point, you yelled at me even louder. I'm not saying that you owe me an apology because we had a difference of opinion. Everyone on Nao can post what he feels, but no one obliges him to change his mind on some threads. Though, I think that you owe me an apology at least for the many things you told me. I interpreted them as insults, and maybe that was not what you meant, but still they were insults in my opinion.

At the same time, I want to apologize with you if I somehow offended you in my previous posts. I was just trying to defend myself from what I considered personal attacks.
Thank you for taking your time and reading what I wrote.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

This post was edited by andromacha on Sep 09, 2002.

Sep 09, 2002 17:07 # 5198

Martin *** replies...

Re: To Martin

100% | 4

Wow, this is one surprise! Not a bad one though! And I thought the next move would be to fix a meeting at 5 am behind the church for a duell!

Seriously. Maybe we can learn something from it. So this is how wars, even flamewars start. Everybody feels offended by the other side and feels the need to defend, with that lining up bigger weapons each round. I'd really like to analyze this, but at the moment it'll be getting us nowhere. So all I can say now is that I'm sorry to have made you cry, that was not at all my intention. I tend to forget in situations like this that not everybody has the same fun in arguing like I have, but might take it way more serious than its meant to be. After all you, both of you, never have been my enemy, as well as you I was just defending and did not understand at all why you kept on firing.

I think I'm known meanwhile to exaggerate every now and then, Frank got used to it quite well meanwhile (did you?), RCD had his share, but I think once you know me a little better you will learn that we can have a hard arguement but still belong to a very nice little family that is spread all over the world which just feels great. And there will be noone excluded from this family just for having a different opinion or for arguing with other members (if so I'd be gone 2 days after joining!). I was not aware of the fact that you and Hawkeye based your decision on MY behavior. If you wonna leave and its my fault as it seems I MUST apologize. This is NOT what I want. I dont wonna be the reason for anyone to leave. As I said before, I didn't have the chance really to know you better. Maybe we can just start anew and give each other a second chance, this includes Hawkeye as well as you, Andromacha.

Peace!

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

Sep 09, 2002 17:18 # 5201

andromacha *** replies...

Re: To Martin

Danke schön, Martin. Ich bin sehr glücklich! :)

I hope this is the beginning of something new. I am sure that Neil will appreciate much what you did.

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".

Sep 09, 2002 17:39 # 5204

andromacha *** replies...

Re: To Martin

So this is how wars, even flamewars start.

And don't forget to mention that women are the ones who always make the difference :P
Not to be too bold, but... hey for once I can say that I was the one to take the first step! Lol :)

Un bacio è un'apostrofo rosa scritto tra le parole "ti amo".


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