Reading Love and Lifesense

isn't it tragic? how we from our childhood learn how different boys and girls are supposed to act? some people, oh well, most of the people say we're born that way. that there are differences between men and women that cannot be explained in any other way than that they're genethic. but is that so?

what about the fact that girls from the very first beginning of their lifes learns that theyu're supposed to play with dolls and are supposed to be cute and nice. boys on the other hand are taught to be tough, be men and don't cry and instead of dolls they get an action man. just look at the fairytales, the sweet princess, what does she do more than look pretty? the prince on the other hand fight the dragon, ride of for adventures and save the poor princess incapable of doing anything on her own.

we all know that in school boys take more place than girls, there has been studies showing that and there has also been studies showing that the teachers do give the boys more time and attention. i was a quiet girl in school because i had been taught to be so. when i was about seven or eight in the classroom i was placed between two boys to calm them down. what signals does that give? you're a girl, you're supposed to be calm, make an example to the boys. and what happened if a girl once acted like the boys? one time in highschool i was talking to a friend while the teacher was talking, and mentionable is that i did not speak loud! the teacher gets angry and tells the class that we can go on as soon as angelica gets quiet. that was almost the only time i spoke when i wasn't supposed to and that teacher knew it. if the boys was shouting during class the teacher didn't care, for that's the way boys are and that can not be changed! what did i learn from that? bad me, how could i talk like that, i should have known better for girls make a good example. girls are quiet! if i had been a boy that talked that quiet the teacher wouldn't have cared because the rules are set higher for the girls since we're supposed to be perfect and "boys will be boys".

another thing disturbing me is the fact that women are supposed to have all these motherfeelings and be sensitive all the time. why is that so? because we are brought up to be caring mothers. it's not a bad thing really, the only thing that's bad about it is that a woman have to be like that. i'm almost conscidered not normal because im a woman who don't like children. i've never liked children, never had a good hand with them and actually think babies are kind of ugly. at least now, i would never dream of having one myself, i'm not suitable as a mother though i'm not that caring. what if i was a man? people wouldn't have thought i was that strange if i was a man who didn't liked children. and are women more sensitive than men? no, not at all. the only difference is that boys learns that they're not supposed to cry because that is weak. don't cry, be a man! i feel sorry for the men who are thaught to act like that for it cannot be easy hiding all your emotions.

boys are being taught to be tough and girls to be weak. this has so much to do with the history in wich men and men only has been the leading characters. at that time much more than now men where taught to be leaders and women simply to look nice, be quiet and obey. it's a far more equal world today but the differences still exists in our minds. we can never make this world completely equal as long as we don't change the very way we think. women may get equal salaries and have the same rights but as long as it's the woman who stays home with the children and the man who fix the car there's a long way still to go.

stereothypes is the problem and i'm well aware i've made up stereotypchical pictures of women and men in this very text but it's not my stereothypes but the ones we're supposed to be created by history, media and ourselves. of course many do not fit in these and i'm most glad that is so! i'm no "thypical woman" and there are lots of men that aren't the way the thypical man should be.

why are most people in prison men? hasn't that anything to do with how they're brought up and the societies view on what's manly? it's the same problem as why the most people staying at home with children are women.

we live in a society that for almost as long as we've known been ruled by men. a society where we've all played our roles. just a while ago this began to change. here in sweden women havn't even had the right to vote for hundred years yet! we're in the very beginning but to reach all the way we have to admit that women and men are no different geneticly! to say we are is to deny true feminism! feminism is not hating men, feminism is about seeing everyone for themselves and not their sex. there is no feminin or masculin, there is but what's human and as a feminist i fight for the rights of both men and women.

carpe diem.

You should search the Internet for the tru story of Brenda/Brandon. "She" was born as a boy but accidentally something got wrong with the genitals so the "doc" just cut it away and told the parents that she has to be a girl.
(I forgot if she also got hormons and stuff)

So the parents raised her as true as a girl can be raised: dolls, pink clothes, long curly hair with nice ribbons.

When "Brenda" got older, you could see better and better that she is not very girlish but indeed has very boyish habits: She loved fighting with her brother, prefered trousers to skirts and didn't care about dolls anymore. The parents remained silent because the doc advised them to.

When puberty began it all got worse. Apart from the usual crisis brenda was totally unhappy, behaved as boyish as ever and wasn't accepted by the other girls and of course, nor by the boys... The doc started a "therapy" but nothing helped. Brenda threatened to kill herself.

The parents operated her back to her "usual" sex and from then on, Brandon grow up almost as a normal boy.

I think this is a proof for how big the role of genes and hormons is. You are "programmed" to be a woman or a man and though nowadays the borderline got smaller, your genes still influence you in a high amount.

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

brandon may have felt that he was a boy and then acted like a boy's supposed to because of that feeling. because he felt like a boy he was affected by media and mostly by men. what if your sex is something you just know, even if it gets wrong, but what's masculin and feminin still are what you're exposed to, media, people around you. and what if brandon had been a calm boy, not all boys like to fight. well what if he had been a calm boy not at all as boyish as he were, would he still make such a great example? no he wouldn't for that would prove that even if he was a boy on the inside it did not necessary mean that he had to have to be "typhically male".

as you say it's more genetic than we think i say it is not as genetic as we think. just think at all we see every day clearifying to us how we should look and how we should act. think about the commercials, the pictures and the very people around us. how can we avoid being affected?

and even if there are genetic differences they're not as big as imagined. it's out of old tradition we without knowing it ourselves keep the society the way it is. i've read about genetic in the question masculin/feminin and what i've read i havn't liked nor believed. what do you think about scientist who claims that women are passive, caring and so on while men are strong, moving and so it goes on. no i don't remeber all the synonyms used but imagine all you think is conscidered the weak side of what's conscidered feminin. are women like that? no they're not.

feels like i should go to sleep now. it's almost 7 am here and i havn't slept for a very long time. hope you get something out of this, it took me quite a while to write though my mind is not as clear and awake as it could be.

carpe diem.

Why are boys so loud/obnoixous/violent...why are girls so caring/calm/nuturing. Two words. Testosterone and Estrogen. This is what mostly defines the two sexes. Yes, there are exceptions...but this is why most of the population acts the way we do. Woman and men have different chemicals flowing throughout there bodies. Testosterone is the dominant, estrogen is the submissive.

This explains why women were shit on throughout time...because by nature women are not dominant sex. When you break it all down, we are the nuturers of this earth. Without females (humans or animals) caring for their young, species would become extict. This day and age woman have developed a resentment to the way they are treated....but this resentment is only because we have become more intelligent. And this resentment is based on the individual themselves and how they feel...some women like being dominated by men. But I belive this is the main reason we are the way we are. Think about it....are we really are is a bunch of too-intelligent animals getting irrated and becoming confused at our own chemicals.

We should of brought a bag of rocks....

During the summer holidays I read the infamous book Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps by Allan and Barbara Pease. Why I don't necessarily agree with many parts of the books, it explained one interesting thing:

In the last decades, the Political Correctness movement has been busy brainwashing us with the fact that men and women are totally equal at their abilities. Same strengths, same weaknesses. Yet from an evolutionary and biological viewpoint, this is complete and utter nonsense.

Men have been hunting animals and beating the cr*p out of each other for millenia, while women spent most of that time at home in the cave, protecting and nurturing the family. Many habits and behaviour patterns of that age have left their footprints in our genetic inheritance. This is for example why many men have a hard time finding things in the fridge (very focussed visual perception), or often can't sleep well in a hotel room when they don't take the side of the bed that's closer to the door (most men don't know that this is often the reason for their bad sleep). This is why women can handle and use a much broader spectrum of sensual input at once. This is why many women can judge the relationships between the guests of a party within minutes after they arrive.

As POWF put it so well, the bloodstream of women and men is mainly flooded by two totally different substances. Testosterone is the reason men are losing hair on their head, and growing more hair on other parts of their body. It's often the reason why they tend to act violent and animal-like.

Part of our behaviour is dictated by our blood chemistry, although we can all learn to control them to some extent.

Last but not least, our brains are wired in a completely different way, which is, for example, why men can never really do more than one thing at a given time. If you're male, watch this. It's a mind numbing restriction.

The point of the arguments brought forth of the book is not to prove that either men or women are superiour. The point is that they both have individual strength and weaknesses, and talking away that fact has led to many dangerous, relationship-destroying misunderstandings.

For example, whenever my girlfriend called me with a difficult problem, I totally warped my brain inside out every time in order to find a solution and tell it to her (it was work!), always assuming that she (woman) would expect me (man) to do this, as I (man) would expect it from her (woman).

Then I read in the said book that one of the things that nag women most about their male partners is, that they're always trying to communicate some stupid solution for their problems, when all they really want is to talk. No solutions, just talk.

When I read this, I turned to her like "ha, look at that stupid book. This is so not true. Just look at us."

When she answered that, yes, I have really been going on her nerves with my silly solutions for over a year now, I was completely shattered. What I always wanted was to help her, but what I really did was to annoy. For over a year. I still haven't worked up this one.

Another example would be that men often want to be kept alone when they have serious problems and sit on a desolate stone in order to ponder on their trouble (look at the logo of the Love and Lifesense forum and you will recognize that image). When one of my buddies sends out signals saying "I want to be kept alone", I will do exactly that - leave him alone, give him time to come to grips with his problems.

When women send out those exact same signals, men usually try to be good friends to their girlfriend and give her the time and loneliness she seems to need. Only that in most cases, these signals mean the complete opposite when being sent by a woman. So the men leaves her alone when she actually needs him most.

Most of these things came like a shock to me. I can only imagine how many relationships and marriages have broken because of such silly, stupid misunderstandings.

Men and women have and should have equal rights, everywhere. But they do not have the same strengths, weeknesses and behaviour patterns, no matter how many times PC drones are telling you this. One day they will be, but our current society is 5,000 years ahead of biological reality.

My advice is, learn about the differences between the genders to learn more about yourself and better understand your partner. Only this will ultimately allow men and women to finally live together in harmony, and finally end the debate on who is more equal than the other.

'Yeah, That's what Jesus would do. Jesus would bomb Afghanistan. Yeah.' - snowlion

Jaz has a very good point. I'm not agreeing with him simply because I am a guy, mind you. There are many differences between men and women (some of which can be changed by a few operations and a hormone shot every so often). If testosterone is what makes a guy a guy, then women are guys too. Women have testosterone in them. It balances out the estrogen so I've heard. Likewise, men have estrogen.

Sex change operations change the physical aspects of being a man or woman. Not to gross anyone out here. Sorry if I have. My point is just that the things we perceive that determine whether someone is a man or woman can completely be changed. There is no solid ground that determines whether someone is a man or woman, but people look for signals that typically only come from a man or woman.

I don't know about women, but guys presume they are looking at a girl if they see long hair coming from the back of someone's head. This doesn't mean a guy can't have long hair or that a girl can't have short hair, but these are the traits men and women look for.

Women, as much as it might seem that guys are jerks and are never sensitive enough, men equally think women are too emotional and can't break a nail without crying (I'll probably get reds for that). Who is right? Maybe neither, maybe both. The only thing I do know is that men and women can do wonderful things together with their talents (ignore the sexual overtones).

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

This post was edited by Hawkeye on Oct 17, 2002.

Just my .02 from down the balcony... :)

Thanks Jaz, I think I'm gonna get me this book...

That makes me a sa-a-a-a-a-ad Panda...

I think it is great post Jaz. I have not read that book, but that is exactly what I came to know thru some mails that were floating around when I had joined college, and it did surprise me a lot when I came to know about all the things that your have mentioned. But, they are 100% true.

We, as men, don't realize how a woman feels and react to her problems the way we react to problems the way men face it. The hormones do play a lot of role in deciding our behaviours, our thinking patterns, our strengths and our weaknesses. And, the strengths and the weaknesses don't make one gender of the species superior. We are here to complement one another and not to compete against each other. The only species we men and women do compete to survive is the species which is not us.

The moment everyone understands that we as men and women are one species and not two different ones, there would not be any problems.

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

We see there are a lot of differences between men and women not only concerning their bodies (hormons, illnesses, anatomy) but also in their thinkings and behaviour.

We could almost say we're cats and dogs :-)

But we've got something cats and dogs obviously don't have: We have the same language and we can talk to each other about our wishes and feelings and though our partner may not understand our behaviour because he would act or feel the other way, we can try to tolerate and accept that :-)

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

IF it's genetic in that case those genetics will change, right? since women also do what men trough history has been doing what's typical for women will slowly dissappear and vice versa. so in fact in either case we are shaped from what's around us.

since i have nothing more to ad that can change your mind i leave this subject for now in search for facts about genetics that proves my oppinion.

/angelica

carpe diem.

I think that our genes will change some time. Just give us a couple of thousand years. :-) Life as such is astoundingly adaptable.

OTOH, is it bad to have some differences? After all, differences are interesting and mean that we can learn from each other. IMHO some differences between men and women are just good, either because they're necessary to ensure survival of the species (also see "R" as in "reproduction"), others make living together... well, richer? For me, as long as man and woman can respect each other, I really don't mind them being different. :-)

Just my Monday afternoon .02. :-)

"*sigh* Some men are really hard to manipulate!" - Orchid

I think that our genes will change some time. Just give us a couple of thousand years.

No that won't take a couple of thousand years. The last 200 years the world has changed more than for 1000 years and as the world around us change, so do we. And as the world around us change women ARE ALLOWED to act differently. Just look at how different a womans life was 100 years ago according to now.

OTOH, is it bad to have some differences? After all, differences are interesting and mean that we can learn from each other.

Yes it's bad if it's differences that doesn't even need to be there. Do men have to be violent? Do women have to be the caring and weak? I don't think so.

Regards, Angelica.

carpe diem.

No that won't take a couple of thousand years.

It will. Genes need a very long time to change if it is not just mutation.

Just look at how different a womans life was 100 years ago according to now.

Yeah maybe but this difference is in mind, fashion and so, not in genes

"Sie wollen nichts anderes. Sie wollen kämpfen! Sie sind Soldaten! Fucking Wahnsinnige!" - Noel G.

I remembered there're some research showing that the genes and brain functions determine the different talent and skill for opposite sexes. For example, men are better at partial skills, that'z why they're always the hunter in the ancient time; while women are better in recognizing the emotional changes, so more females are employed as PR. Do you consider this as unfair / tragic too??
If you're a girl, and you're taught to appear very gentlely, perhaps they're just helping you to be a successful PR, helping you to actualize your potential fully.
Why you'd like to see the genes are changing?? what will you like to see in the future? All people in the world are of some very ambigious sexual identity? Or that women and men should receive the speak in the same level of voice, should have similar level of aggressiveness, all of us playing a robot which dress like a barbie?? That'z weird i guess.
It's funnie to see many of the feminists arguing for equality. They want to see girls are not behaving so "girlish" yet, they express girlish in a way of comparison to males' behaviours. Why you stress so much that being casual and in power are men's characteristics only?? By that, you're recognizing men's superior. And after all, you're not saying to break the stereotype by giving girls equal chances to grow freely. But just asking for the rights that girls can behave like boys too.

What if without parental encouragement, girls still tend to play barbie dolls?? Who knows?

~ I won't let go that hands I hold ~

Just some comments:

For example, men are better at partial skills, that'z why they're always the hunter in the ancient time

The myth that the hunters in ancient times were mostly male is just that: a myth. From what we can determine from arceological studies, women were probably just as active hunters as men were. It is usefull to note here, that men only became the "dominant" gender when the society turned agricultural.

True, there are some genetical differances between men and women, but when it comes to mental skills, these differances become just as large as the differances between Asians and Caucasians.

regards
/Niklas

1. Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

For example, men are better at partial skills, that'z why they're always the hunter in the ancient time;

Read what Kastchei wrote about that. I have nothing further to ad in that matter.

If you're a girl, and you're taught to appear very gentlely, perhaps they're just helping you to be a successful PR, helping you to actualize your potential fully.

And if I don't want to be a PR? What you should do with your life shouldn't be based on your sex. What if I have potentialof becoming a strong leader but repress that because what's expected of me is something else? And what do you prefer, to appear gently, obey what other peple tells you to do and from your childhood learn that you should be nice no matter what. OR, be taught that you have an opinion and that showing it isn't a bad thing to do. In school boys say what's on their mind and argue if they think someone treats them bad. Girls don't do that as often for we are taught to "appear very gently". And if you go to your boss in an attempt to try to raise you salary, which way will work the best? be gently so he can run you over with his arguments of why you should not be better paid or to be tough and hold to your idea? If I had a daughter I would never raise her to be that little gentle creature you appearantly think is a good thing to be. You should be gentle but also strong, that you've missed.

Why you'd like to see the genes are changing?? what will you like to see in the future? All people in the world are of some very ambigious sexual identity? Or that women and men should receive the speak in the same level of voice, should have similar level of aggressiveness, all of us playing a robot which dress like a barbie?? That'z weird i guess.

I think it would be nice if men weren't agressive, all staying at home with children weren't women (leading to less money and less money when retired wich basicly make the structure of men as the better live on!) and it wasn't expected that you'd behave a certain way because of your sex!

And all speaking in the same level of voice wouldn't be that bad. Do you know about scientistic research done about the way we speak according to our sex? It isn't about women and men sounding different because of how our bodies are built, there's nothing wrong with that, but do you know women speak lower than they need to, lower than their voice can deal with? That many, many women speak low just because they are taught to be silent, nice and gentle. You can either speak up in the troath or in the stomach. And if you speak up in your troath your voice will sound pretty and low when you're young but strange when your old due to how hard it is for your body to keep that unnatural level of voice. Not many knows about this but that's the way it is. many women speak lower than they need to just because they're used to it. Both men and women can try this, there are many ways of using your voice. And many women don't use their voice fully.

And if you know anything abut feminism you don't even mention barbie. You should dress just the way you like. End of that.

It's funnie to see many of the feminists arguing for equality. They want to see girls are not behaving so "girlish" yet, they express girlish in a way of comparison to males' behaviours. Why you stress so much that being casual and in power are men's characteristics only?? By that, you're recognizing men's superior. And after all, you're not saying to break the stereotype by giving girls equal chances to grow freely. But just asking for the rights that girls can behave like boys too.

Of course I want to give girls equal chances! That's what feminism is all about! Women are just as good as men no matter how they act!

I don't think what's viewed as typical feminin is bad and that all viewed male is good. There are both good and bad things about the typical female attributes and so with the masculin. The problem is that it shouldn't even be typical female and male attributes. We should all be persons and nothing should be expected of us just because of our sex. Children shouldn't be brought up different ways to learn to act different, for that's the fact; we do bring up our children different according to if it's a boy or a girl.

I prefer being independent, knowing leadership and be strong instead of (your quote!) "being gentle". If you're looking for a job they prefer the person who can take initiatives, is confident and strong. Not the gentle one who sits there quiet, smile and look sweet! For that's the roles we've played for thousands of years. Don't tell me there's something wrong about changing that. I don't say that all fit in the stereotypes I just described, but I say that that's what expected of us. Differences can be exiting but not if your salary depends on them!

Trough history women has been thaught to be nice and sweet and quiet. And by god I hope that's not genetic! But if it is it WILL change for we're not living in the same world as 100 years ago. Back then women didn't work, didn't have rights, didn't need to be able to do anything else than take care of children and to look sweet. Women were supposed to sit quiet and listen to her man talking for he was the one providing the family, he was the strong and protective. The woman was weak. If you want to live in this world, fine by me, I don't want to. I don't think what we needed to know and how we we're supposed to act back then should still be so alive today for the world has changed. Women don't need to be quiet, men don't need to be agressive to defend his weak woman who can't take care of herself. And I would never ever as you actually wheter you are aware of it or not, defend that!

What if without parental encouragement, girls still tend to play barbie dolls?? Who knows?

Well what if boys without parental encouragement would tend to play with barbie dolls instead of action man?? Who knows?

carpe diem.

Women don't need to be quiet, men don't need to be agressive to defend his weak woman who can't take care of herself.

and especially, men hasn't to play the "big hard indian man, who doesn't feel no pain" - meaning, eg. i can cry if I want to and don't get comprimised by some long-outrun concept.

What if without parental encouragement, girls still tend to play barbie dolls??

Well what if boys without parental encouragement would tend to play with barbie dolls instead of action man?? Who knows?

I know. test results show, that children with more oestrogen (no matter, if they are male or female) in blood circuit tend to play with dolls, and children with more testosteron in blood circuit tend to play more "manly" stuff...

anyway, it's NOT really a matter of gender, it's quite a part of it, but gender is not the final word in the discussion called life. it's just a SINGLE aspect.

also it depends on your daily environment (where and how you grow up), and as my fore-speakers said, on how you get educated as well.. but this still are only single pieces of the puzzle...

cu, w0lf.

Metal has no laws. Metal is the law.

This post was edited by oxygenius on Oct 22, 2002.

Well even at a young age long before puberty, there is an obvious difference between boys and girls. Not just boys playing with action figures and girls playing with dolls (that's typical behavior, but it also a stereotype).

Boys tend to show more aggressive and destructive behavior than girls do. Boy will be more likely to mess up someone's sandcastle than a girl will. Girls will tend to be in their little world thinking about the future and all the things they've come to expect about being a wife and having children (no matter how skewed their views are at that age). They don't act this way because they were told to. So why do they do that? The only clear hypothesis I can come out of that is that even when the differences between men and women are minimized as children, there is clearly a difference in behavior. Hence, men and women are clearly different.

I'm definitely not saying one is better than the other of course, but there was a clear reason behind the differences when men and women were living in caves and trees. Women weren't looking for feminine men because they wouldn't hunt, and it was essential for survival. Men weren't looking for masculine women because men needed women to take care of the children. So, as a result of this evolution was that these traits were exaggerated. Anything known to be synonymous of one sex is encouraged behavior, because unwittingly, these were the traits the opposite sex was looking for in a mate. It still goes on today. Men are encouraged to play sports, and women are encouraged to cook.

It could have easily been the other way around where the men hunted and cooked the food in primative times, and women trained the children for hunting as well. The roles would be quite different if that were so today. Certainly nothing is set in stone, and absolutely no role is demanded upon anyone.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father