Reading frank's journal

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Let me quote the essential statement right in front of my reply

You are either with us or you are against us. There is no middle ground. Pick a side.

Sigh... here's the key reason why the US tends to solve any given problem with force of weapons. It seems as if its just not in the genes of US people to talk, to solve problems by discussion. Its by no means representative, I know that very well, but still, look at Hawkeye or Frank for that matter. They are able to provide their point of view but they are in no way able to move a single inch. On the contrary the more one tries to make those guys think the more aggressive they get. In that respect they are perfect Americans following exactly the example their govornment shows them, what a sad sight to see...
Live like an American or die, you want me to choose? Okay, I'd rather die.

Many people don't realize that the job of the U.N. Weapons Inspectors is not to go in and find what Saddam has.

Of course not (NOW, that they have actually found nothing).

Their job is to go in and supervise/verify that Saddam is disarming according to the various U.N. Resolutions he agreed too. Most people think that the inspectors job was to go in and hunt down these weapons and prove that Saddam has nothing. Wrong!

And why not give them the needed time then?

He's been in violation of U.N. Resolutions for 12 long years.

Ever since he was installed by the US. And, oh, btw, anyone ever counted the UN Resolutions the US is violating, for example regarding leading attack-wars?

There are around 100 inspectors and Iraq is the size of the state of California. You can do the math on this equation. The odds that the inspectors could find anything in a country of that size is minimal.

I thought their job was NOT to find anything...

Plus their job was not to go in and find anything.

Ah, yes, thanks for the reminder!

Iraq provided disinformation with their 12,000 page document stating their weapons programs and weapon posessions. The document left out key information about weapons (chemical/biological) that we already knew they had.

Wow, you read it? Cool! And even cooler, you KNOW the whole truth about Iraq already! Wow! Why not call the UN then and tell them to withdraw their inspectors, Frank has all the information we need!

Another thing that the world is failing to realize is that Saddam is in violation of 16 U.N. Resolutions. He is doing everything in his power to make it seem like he is complying. He is doing enough so that the media will think he is complying.

Like the US and Israel and Mexico and Honduras and Argentina and South Korea and China and Russia............

How do I know this? Well the U.S. has spy satellite video of large trucks leaving the scene a few hours before a inspections were going to take place. This has happened on multiple occasions.

Large trucks, I see... I'll be coming back to that point.

Many people want the U.S. to provide compelling evidence as to what Saddam has. However what they fail to realize is that if we do that we cannot destroy it when the war starts. Why? Because Saddam will move it, hide it, disquise it in some way.

But I thought the US has

spy satellite video of large trucks leaving the scene a few hours before a inspections were going to take place.

Should it not be easy to follow it then, since its all on large truck, that you've seen moving numerous times before?

The world does not know what the U.S. military knows.

I wish the US military would finally accept what the world knows and not bother us with this permanent lies anymore! Namely that this whole argumentation you are trying to present here again is nothing but mere propaganda, that the reasons for this war are totally different ones and got nothing to do with Sadam or WOMD...

We have eyes in the sky, people on the ground and mechanisms in place that gather this information. Its been kept under lock and key and from prying eyes.

Provided this is true, why not share it with the UN? Why let them perform such "ridiculous acts" like sending the inspectors down there? I tell you: There is NONE such information, its only to gain time to prepare for war, there was never a honest wish of the US to prevent it, all actions were just accepted to gain time for own preparations. Now that they are finished finally, no more talking AT ALL needed.

When the war starts, the world will see what Saddam has. If he has all of these weapons the U.S. thinks he has then he will surely use them on our troops.

Of course he would, like every other country in the world would if its attacked!

the U.S. reserves the right to use nuclear weapons. This is unprecedented and should be alarming.

Alarming? I beg your pardon? Did you say "alarming"? I asked it before but got no answers: what is the difference in WOMD in the hand of the US and in the hand of Iraq or North Korea or Pakistan or Israel or France or Liechtenstein? They are meant to kill people and the US is the only, I repeat, THE ONLY country in the world which threatens their enemies to use it, if they dont obey and follow their backmailing! Please, do me favour and explain to me the word "DefCon", while invading a foreign country and facing desperate tries to prevent that.

Saddam's time has come and he will be delt with in a few weeks

Okay, you've made your homework and listened to the speech of your President, you're an ideal American, guess your President can be proud of you (or maybe happy rather to find it so easy to betray his own people. We had this image of sheep moving in herds not long ago...)

unless... Saddam has two options to get out of this war.

No, Saddam has NO option to get out of this war!
Whatever he does, the US will always find a way to discredit it and find new reasons to start this war. Just a quick reminder: first its was Iraq's connection to Al Quaida, no evidence found, then it was WOMD, no evidence found, then it was violation of UN resolution concerning weapon inspectors, he let them in, they found nothing, finally its the person Saddam himself. Let me quote you President "Iraqui people, you are not surrounded be the enemy, the enemy rules your country". Funny... I thought the same about the US during the last months.

Think of it, for Mr.Bush there is simply NO WAY to NOT go to war now. It would mean his personal defeat, the political end of the Bush clan, no reelection, the ultimate loss of face after all he announced so far. This is not a war that has any politcal motives, its about might and how to keep it, and of course share it with his personal friends.

Nobody knows what Saddam would do if he had/has weapons of mass destruction.

Well, at least we know what the US is doing with their WOMD: threatening everyone to use it against them if they dont obey. "You are either with us or you are against us".

The fact is we (the world) cannot allow him to gain access to these weapons because we know he will use them at some point

Frank, even you should watch "Bowling for Columbine". May be you'd see why on every house's door in the US there are at least three locks, why everyone has a some sort of gun under his pillow. There is no nation in the world that is more scared, scared of everything, every human being you meet is an enemy in the first place and he has to prove himself that he is NOT. If he cant, he stays the enemy, and to prevent any harm, you better kill him before he kills you. That's how the US society works and even up to the highest political level. Someone who is not your personal freind turns automatically into your enemy. "You are either with us or you are against us". There is way more middle ground than you accept to see. And the worst thing about is the fact that you even think to be the good guys in this. You mix up the roles of aggressor and defender! If you shoot someone on the street, because he had a hand in his pocket and the pocket looked like as if there could be a gun in it, even if there IS in fact a gun in his pocket... is that still self-defence?

Why dont you understand that its not the question if Iraque HAS WOMD or not! There are dozends of countries who have. Its only about the fact that the US is terribly afraid of this guy. So its better to kill him first, and if that means to kill half Iraqui people with it, okay, who cares, "You are either with us or you are against us".

The world needs to get on their collective knees and thank the U.S. for our actions. Somebody with intestinal fortitude needs to stand up and deal with the crazy people of this world that wanna do harm to your family and friends.

Go and put some more locks to your front door, maybe they're in your country already trying to sneak into your home in the night....

Face it, America is doing the world a favor by getting Saddam before he does something akin to Hitler.

I replied to that before.

know the european audience on NAO will most likely disagree with my statements and thats fine.

Of course we will, but then again why is it bad? Let there be discussion about opinions, let there be arguements about the "right" way, its better than stop talking and bringing in your troops and throw around with nukes!

We will see what Saddam has once and for all.

Okay, serious question Frank: try to imagine Saddam, Bin Laden, the whole Arab world to team up and plan an invasion of the US of A. Would your country not defend with anything they've got?
So, if you KNOW he has WOMDs, you can be sure he will use it, once you set a foot on his soil, which leads again to the use of nukes by the US. So what we have is in fact an announced use of nuclear weapons as part of an attack-war. Okay, and now please tell me against which law of nations this is NOT violating, or which UN resolution covers this.

The sensible people survive and the crazy wacko dictators of the world that wanna kill you and your family will be assimilated.

"We are Borg, resistance is futile"
Is this "the land of the free and the home of the brave"?

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

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Dont worry, Frank, I'm not getting angry over this, at least not against individuals anymore. Of course you base your opinion, like myself and everybody else, on the information you got. I'm just wondering who is filtering the information for you if not yourself (like I do for myself)? You said you're using the internet for gathering that information, so spending just a few hours here for instance should change your opinion drastically. No, Frank, at the end of the day its not a matter of information, but just a matter of believe. We all have access to the same sources (which may still well be only a fraction of ALL the info that might be available in some secret services cellars), still we come to different conclusions.

As I tend to ignore almost any piece of source that has only the slightest smell of being an official statement (cause I believe its a lie anyway), its exactly the opposite for you. The ethical question about it is: Do I have to respect your opinion, your believe, as such, or is it my sort of moral duty to try and give you (what looks from my position like) a wider view of things? And how do I do that? And at what price? (Look at Chris, we've temporarily lost him only after a few days due to shaking his basic believes)

Talking against someones opinion doesnt mean to hate or refuse the individual as a whole. We had this many times before and you should know my attitude on this meanwhile. Talking, exchanging different views, even if its looking difficult or even impossible at first glance, is still the most important reason why this site exists. And that also means there are no opinons that are "more right" than others, or that anyone gets discriminated because of wording his special view of things.

Let me finally come back to the topic again and quote something from this article (Mr.Crash provided that link) that is 100% my opinion as well: I would love to see Saddam's downfall - just not on Bush's terms and not by his methods. And not under the banner of such outrageous hypocrisy.

take care

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

This post was edited by Martin on Feb 02, 2003.

I would love to see Saddam's downfall - just not on Bush's terms and not by his methods. And not under the banner of such outrageous hypocrisy

Beautiful article indeed! Yes, I totally agree to it. None of us would like a dictator like Saddam to be in power. But, this is not the way to do it.

I am not surprised when I hear from the Americans that they are doing the world a favor and more sentences in that line. Even the new year address by the Bush administration had stated that their main aim would be to keep US a superpower and extend its superpower abilities in the coming year. What US is doing now is imperialism. Exactly, like the British and French colonialism earlier in History. US wants to police the world, enjoys doing it, and while maintaining its supremacy all over the world breaks numerous international laws that it itself had created.

What I am worried is that any such empire that is based on self-interests, lies, and wars, usually comes tumbling down pretty soon. History has witnessed such debacles many times. Bush is going to commit the biggest mistake in History. And, I am confident that the American public will realize it, if not now, later. But, will it be too late by then? There are still people like chris who have seen the truth behind all the propaganda. There are still people who are voicing their opinions in anti-war protests and internet forums. The question that is still unanswered is whether all this will matter or not? Will people actually make a difference and avert this nonsensical war? Or, all their efforts will go in vain?

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

Exactly, like the British and French colonialism earlier in History. US wants to police the world, enjoys doing it, and while maintaining its supremacy all over the world breaks numerous international laws that it itself had created.
What I am worried is that any such empire that is based on self-interests, lies, and wars, usually comes tumbling down pretty soon. History has witnessed such debacles many times.

And this is what scares me most. There are many decent, generous, peaceful people in the U.S. that will be harmed, even devastated when the fall comes, just as there are many of the same in Iraq. It saddens me that people in general really are powerless against such powerful vested interests that cause calamities like this. The decent people of Iraq and the decent people of the world are repeatedly devastated by events like this and have been throughout history.

I know that this sounds fatalist. We can protest and maybe affect events, like what occurred in the '60's against the war in Viet Nam. But even then the war was not stopped until years and thousands of deaths later. I can only live by the serenity prayer.

Give me the strength to change what I can, to accept what I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I did not vote for Bush!, ChefPB

Give me the strength to change what I can, to accept what I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Mmmh, I think there is no absolute judgement (is wisdom measurable?) to know the difference. Its different for every individual. In this case its just a question of political pressure that is produced. Still, thank whatever God you worship, the US is a democracy (for how long?). Your leaders are going nuts, so send them home or to some sanitatrium, but dont let them devastate the world! What comes next? Iraq, North Korea, Cuba, Lybia, Germany? The American people voted for an extreme right wing government and history has *some* stories to tell about extreme right wing politicians, we're just seeing another episode being added. There are two possibilites how it will go on: send them home or jail them or they will fall from their own pride and hunger of might carrying along 100.000s if not millions of deaths. The US has brought the world closer to a WW3 then we have ever been during the cold war. At least my personal fear of it is way bigger than during the 70s or 80s, and I'm living in Berlin, front city.

After decades of construction my website is finally up an running: www.kkds.de

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I listen to the news, I listen to talk radio shows. I watch news on TV and I read news on the internet. I base my opinions from that.

Well, this is off-topic, but, this is the biggest reason why most Americans have literally blind-folded themselves. The media is serving a wide variety of lies and people are believing them to be true.

Just 3-4 days back, MSNBC reported that "they have found" that ALL the anti-war protests are actually done by Iraqi spies that have come to US via Canada. And, that these spies are recruiting people of different races and religions to become spies of Iraq and take part in these anti-war protests. I have never heard anything funnier. The news on US media is a big joke.

One day after the tragic Columbia accident, CNN reports that the shuttle was traveling at 18 times the speed of LIGHT!!! They kept on repeating the news for the whole day. Now, I am sure a standard 9 student would know that such a speed does not exist. I never heard any apology or correction from CNN regarding this news, after a while I just stopped watching it.

No I didn't read that 12,000 page document Iraq submitted to the U.N., however I will accept the opinions of it by the qualified U.N. members who read it and gave their statements on it.

First of all, this 12,000 page documents contains around 10,000 pages which are exactly the same which Iraq had given to UN earlier. Only 2,000 pages of it has been added to cover their weapons program details from 1998 till today. I have written this in an earlier post too that if US knows that Iraq is moving something from any site, and that US is tracking every such movement, then isn't it easier for the inspectors to locate the WMDs? Why and how does US know that Iraq has these WMDs? Because, they were the ones that provided these to Iraq to fight against the Iran war. Is it REALLY possible to keep track of all your weapons usage (which are in thousands of tons) when a country has fought a long devastating 8-year long war with another country?

Frank, HawkEye, scrop67, anyone who is trying to defend your Government's policies, I totally understand how you feel. Because, during an India-Pakistan crisis, I do exactly the same. The patriot in me puts a blind-fold, and I sub-consiously, cannot think about anything else apart from defending my country to its core. I don't know who is right and who is wrong, but I can not accept anything that goes against my country. Well, this happens whenever the topic is started. If I don't reply to it immediately, and give some time to think about the issues, and without getting emotionally excited, then I do get to see the truth behind the problems. My country is not always right, noone can be always right. There is no such a thing as I am always correct, and anyone who disagrees with me is always wrong. Life, people, countries, governments these can not be divided into pure white and pure black. There are shades of gray everywhere. It's just a matter of opening your eyes to see the truth.

Love is blind, but marriage is a real eye opener.

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